Tootsie controversy - Page 3

[OKBroadwayFan]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:04pm

Article about the conflicts between Drag and Trans communities.

https://www.them.us/story/how-drag-queens-turned-against-the-trans-community

[Rogerdellibovi]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:10pm

This thread made me google the pretty woman merch and jfc..... have all marketing people for broadway musicals lost their minds? For those curious, the pretty woman merch says "Bold woman, fierce woman, funny woman, strong woman, pretty woman". Perhaps this is the inverse of Tootsie, okay out of context but quite bad in context (to Tootsie's okay in context not quite out of context). 

[BritCrit]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:16pm

Rogerdellibovi said: "This thread made me google the pretty woman merch and jfc.....have all marketing people for broadwaymusicals lost their minds? For those curious, the pretty woman merch says "Bold woman, fierce woman, funny woman, strong woman, pretty woman". Perhaps this is the inverse of Tootsie, okay out of context but quite bad in context (to Tootsie's okay in context not quite out of context)."

Yeah, that sounds a bit iffy. I was thinking of Pretty Woman because it is another comedy adaptation which has to dance around the changes to gender dynamics which have been generated by the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements....

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:30pm

 but as I pointed out, many of the loudest detractors on Twitter are opposed to the whole concept of a man dressing as a woman to advance his own career. 

Ahhhh...I am an idiot and somehow totally missed your prior post.  Apologies to you BroadwayBen and uncageg.  I agree that the show itself (as well as the film) is not transphobic.  Tootsie is a farce about the masquerade of the lead character.  The whole point is that the character is NOT trans.  

Most of us can make the distinction between a frivolous comedy about cross dressing and the actual life and experiences of the trans community

I think most of the trans community can as well.  Every minority has extremists.  

[Impossible2]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:31pm

This is what happens when empowerment becomes entitlement.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:37pm

KMK does sell an "I Hate Men" t-shirt.

http://www.roundaboutmerchandise.com/kiss-me-kate/

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:43pm

I think one of the things some trans folks would find frustrating about Tootsie is not the just the drag, but the lack of shows about trans people out there. I'm not against a farce about drag, but then there should be more up to date plays and musicals about queer people. We have a good number of shows about gay men, but not many outside a gay male view. Again we should totally have male queer shows and shows about drag, but hopefully some shows/characters in shows outside of that too.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 4:13pm

KMK does sell an "I Hate Men" t-shirt.

Ahhh...but it has the cutesy heart to give it that softened mixed message.  Clever, but weird.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 4:38pm

haterobics said: "Mister Matt said: "Here's the thing...the outrage stems from how easily the line could be taken out of context, when it is displayed completely out of context, as leverage for anti-trans activists."

Because if there is one thing TERFs and others really needed, it was a Broadway music to crystalize their message for them, and give them an easy way to spend $40 to put trans women in their place?!

Not to mention that you need to misinterpret the line to even get there, since "being a woman is nojob for a man" doesn't even make any sense, unless you skip over the "job" part.

I can't quite imagine needing Tootsie merch at all, but this will probably be the hot ticket item at the Flea Market, unless they had them all burned."

If the excess inventory ends up at the Flea, I will totally get one.

The Kiss Me Kate shirt is lame. I find the move to wearable merch that doesn't say much about the show a weird choice. If I'm spending $40 on a shirt, I'm not looking for a somewhat generic T-shirt that's similar to what I could find at a fast fashion store. I would rather have a shirt that unabashedly proclaims "I hate men" without the heart and then has a big logo for Kiss Me Kate on the back or the sleeve to clarify. The font is also too cute and tentative. Just my opinion.

[Rogerdellibovi]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 5:40pm

Since this thread has basically become a terrible merch thread can I say the “Friend of Dorothy” shirt is so hilarious, they didn’t need the other shirt at all. Also The Prom shirt that says “We’re all Lesbians” wins because it’s hilarious in context and out of context.

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 5:58pm

DoTheDood said: "I think one of the things some trans folks would find frustrating about Tootsie is not the just the drag, but the lack of shows about trans people out there. I'm not against a farce about drag, but then there should be more up to date plays and musicals about queer people. We have a good number of shows about gay men, but not many outside a gay male view. Again we should totally have male queer shows and shows about drag, but hopefully some shows/characters in shows outside of that too. "

I am frustrated that there are not more movies and plays from a black, gay or other people of colors' views. I don't take it out on, or get upset with other shows. I chose to pay and see TOOTSIE knowing what the storyline was. I chose not to see a number of gay plays this past year because they were from a white gay male point of view. I didn't slam them, I just opted not to see them. 

If I had the means, I would produce the shows I would like to see butfor now I can only suggest them in comments, talk backs, forums, etc.

There seems to be no outrage from straight men, who the shirt was aimed at. But oh, it isn't about them. 

And TOOTSIE is not the only show this season with content that a lot of these people would  consider to be PC. They need to pop over to the Winter Garden! (Where everyone seemed to have a blast last night)  But no, they are too worried about a harmless tee shirt. And quite honestly, I would expect that these people would not be fazed by some of the things in these other shows. They pick and choose, while the rest of us get it and enjoy ourselves. Just my random thoughts.

 

[yankeefan7]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 6:06pm

" If Kiss Me Kate sold a bunch of I HATE MEN merchandise (and perhaps they are...I don't really know), we could be having the same discussion about that as well."

In the world we live in today. selling a t-shirt which said "I Hate Men" would probably be a huge seller -lol

[greensgreens]

Posted: 4/10/19 at 9:03am

The phrase in question was on postcards being put in every merch bag, so perhaps that should’ve been stopped, but otherwise, why can’t people buy whatever shirts they like? The sippie cups say “I got tipsy at Tootsie”! I don’t drink and am not a fan, but did I demand everyone else stop drinking out of them and they switch to new cups? Absolutely not. We can’t stop people from making & wearing MAGA merch, we just don’t buy it to show disapproval.

I’m framing that postcard now. They didn’t really get rid of the “friend of Dorothy,” did they? Those were HILARIOUS. And that phrase shouldn’t be misinterpreted by anyone. A lot of younger folks understand that popular bit from the gay lexicon!

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/10/19 at 9:47am

The Friend of Dorothy tee is still in their online shop.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/10/19 at 11:20am

VintageSnarker said: "I find the move to wearable merch that doesn't say much about the show a weird choice. If I'm spending $40 on a shirt, I'm not looking for a somewhat generic T-shirt that's similar to what I could find at a fast fashion store."

I agree. I want the Broadway logo that will always remind me of the show. I don't see a point, or need for anything else.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/10/19 at 12:20pm

I bought the Friend of Dorothy tee and mug online. 

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/10/19 at 11:58pm

John Adams said: "I want the Broadway logo that will always remind me of the show. I don't see a point, or need for anything else."

I sort of like to get something a bit more off the beaten path. Like, I'd never walk around in a bright red shirt with Bette Midler Hello Dolly! in huge letters on the front. But Vandergelder's Hay and Feed?! I'm in...

It still reminds ME of the show, it just doesn't have to perform that function for everyone around me.

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 4/11/19 at 3:48am

'I'm not gay but $20. is $20.'

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 4/11/19 at 5:39am

haterobics said: "John Adams said: "I want the Broadway logo that will always remind me of the show. I don't see a point, or need for anything else."

I sort of like to get something a bit more off the beaten path. Like, I'd never walk around in a bright red shirt with Bette Midler Hello Dolly! in huge letters on the front. But Vandergelder's Hay and Feed?! I'm in...

It still reminds ME of the show, it just doesn't have to perform that function for everyone around me."

I'm thinking more of those list shirts... I forget the name of the design but imagine Masha and Sonya and Vanya and Spike but in a left-aligned list with & at the end. Or stuff that's totally innocuous in a boring font. I just want some good design and I like merch that doesn't seem ashamed of itself or the show it's representing. 

[Fredrich Yeager]

Posted: 4/14/19 at 4:57am

I wanted to weigh in since I'm actually a transgender person who has been following the show closely for some time (although I haven't been able to see it yet). 

The merchandise itself wasn't transphobic, but it was slightly blind to the ways in which it could be misinterpreted, so I think it was right for it to be taken down. They're not depending on that particular merch for income, and people were hurt, so I think regardless of the original intentions taking it down was the right move.

But people claiming that it was intentional, or the show itself is transphobic are grasping at straws to be offended. While man-in-a-dress comedy is certainly a thing, the comedy in the show comes from everything but that. Tootsie uses observational humor, largely to make fun of men's incompetence and how little they understand about what it means to be a woman. Even looking at the movie, it's an inherently feminist premise (man thinks he'll have an easier time as a woman but ends up learning how hard women have it). Actual gender identity never factors into the premise or the humor.

Drag is not transphobic, and calling out a man stealing roles from women by pretending to be one is not the same thing as saying trans women are stealing roles from cis women. The difference: Michael Dorsey is a man pretending to be a woman, trans women are women. To think criticizing Dorsey's actions is transphobic is to say you think trans women are men pretending to be women. 

And what's more, just because something can be misinterpreted by transphobes, terfs, homophobes, whatever, does not mean it itself is problematic. Hedwig and the Angry Inch has been used for years by transphobes to make fun of transvestites, when it is literally a revolutionary LGBT piece about the intricacies of gender and gender expression and people who don't fit neatly into the binary. 

They also seem to be working extra hard to single out Tootsie as if it's special in what it does. Anyone with any knowledge of Early Modern theater knows that theatre has played with concepts of gender since the dawn of time and cross dressing is an occupational hazard for male actors. Why is Tootsie so different? 

These backseat activists care more about sounding woke than being right and it's hurting real people. And 80% of them aren't even trans.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 4/14/19 at 7:11pm

Welcome to BWW, Fredrich! You never know when something informative and pertinent is gonna pop up on this board, but posts like yours are why we wade through the threads each day. 

 

[getupngo]

Posted: 4/14/19 at 7:26pm

DoTheDood said: "I think one of the things some trans folks would find frustrating about Tootsie is not the just the drag, but the lack of shows about trans people out there. I'm not against a farce about drag, but then there should be more up to date plays and musicals about queer people. We have a good number of shows about gay men, but not many outside a gay male view. Again we should totally have male queer shows and shows about drag, but hopefully some shows/characters in shows outside of that too."

they tried with Head over Heels.. and well... lol

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/14/19 at 10:07pm

Fredrich I agree with everything you said except that they were right to remove the shirt because of how it may be interpreted. That is still giving in. Things are constantly misinterpreted these days and twisted to align with someone or some group's opinions. I feel they should have stood their ground, explained what THEY meant by the shirt and continued to sell it. Or, just ignored them and continued to sell it. At some point someone has to stand up to these ridiculous complaints and accusations.

[LuPita2]

Posted: 4/14/19 at 10:29pm

"Or, just ignored them and continued to sell it. At some point someone has to stand up to these ridiculous complaints and accusations."

All the applause to you, it's been ridiculous for far too long. 

[bk]

Posted: 4/14/19 at 10:36pm

LuPita2 said: ""Or, just ignored them and continued to sell it. At some point someone has to stand up to these ridiculous complaints and accusations."

All the applause to you, it's been ridiculous for far too long."

I agree - they are completely stupid to remove it because of a handful of twits on Twitter.  Someone has to say enough already.