Interview: Meow Meow And Ramin Karimloo on SWEENEY TODD at Birmingham Rep
'I want them to be present and just experience the ride with us'
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street begins haunting Birmingham Rep in July. The show, written by Stephen Sondheim and Hugh Wheeler, follows Benjamin Barker (Ramin Karimloo) as he returns to London after being wrongfully imprisoned for fifteen years. He takes on the name Sweeney Todd and join forces with Mrs Lovett (Meow Meow) to enact his bloody revenge.
Recently, we had the chance to speak with both Karimloo and Meow Meow about bringing Sweeney Todd to Birmingham Rep. We discussed what made both of them want to be a part of this production, what it takes to balance the humour and darkness of Sondheim and even some historical context from the 18th century!
How did each of you first get started in the world of theatre?
Meow Meow: I would say I was born to it!
Ramin: The first thing I ever did was a semi-pro production of Lost in Yonkers in downtown Toronto, because I got the bug for wanting to storytell. I love music, and coming from a small town, I didn't think of myself being a singer or anything, I just want to tell stories and play characters. I loved Robert Duvall, [Robert] De Niro and [Marlon] Brando, and all them from the studio. Watching them and the transformative roles they would play, I was like, “Oh, I want to do that. I like that!”
Meow Meow: You were talking the other day about hearing different voices that really spoke to you, not in a musical theatre way, but a storytelling way!
Ramin: Yeah! At that point I was listening to Kenny Rogers, Tracy Chapman, Joel Cocker, my favourite singer, Canada's son Gordon Downie, from The Tragically Hip. They all had a unique sound to them. And then Colm Wilkinson, when he came over with Phantom! I like when you feel like there's a story in the sound of someone's voice. And at that point, the films I was watching, like Goodfellas and things like that, I was like, “Man, this is so cool!” But then what tied it all in was seeing Phantom, and then realising that I want to make people feel like I've just been made to feel.
Meow Meow: Similarly, the storytelling aspect with voices or worlds that were not necessarily bigger, but different and unexpected. I loved that whole aspect, and I loved using the whole body to tell a story, through dance and voices. I love Nina Simone's voice, particularly - we feel the agony. And Jacques Brel, I love a lot - there's a real story in the songs. I do love perfection - I’m a huge opera fan - but I also love when you hear this frail, human story cracking through. When I go to the ballet, I actually love it when I hear the dancers breathing and gasping!
I still remember one of the first ballets I ever saw. I was in the front row, very little, and I got a tiny bit of sweat on me - it was just one of the most exciting things. These beautiful classical dancers, in a really tragic love scene from Onegin, were just hurling each other on the stage. It was amazing, but it was so visceral - it transcended dance, it transcended language. You are absolutely transported. I live in a fairly heightened way, off stage and on stage, and I like blowing open those boundaries, whether I'm in the audience or on stage. You want the layers. Telling the story, if I feel like there's a drive to it, then it takes care of itself.
And what made each of you want to be a part of this production of Sweeney Todd?
Meow Meow: The music supervisor, John Rigby, said, “I think you should have a look at Mrs. Lovett.” I'm a huge Kurt Weill fan, and I sing a lot of Weimar stuff - I really love that political music from the 1920s and 30s in Germany. I could see all these resonances with personal crises and capitalism within the story. The Threepenny Opera was based on a John Gay British play from a long time ago. I like the way that these stories keep going through cultures, generations, and they're often about the little person, the state, a crisis of faith and morality - are we going to step all over people, are we just going to kick them? Those stories, they're interesting! So I came to it through, in a way, Kurt Weill, because it's playwrights and musicians grappling all the time with the politics of being an artist. What do you want to say to an audience? How do you put that in music? And also, the fun of it! This is gothic horror fun, and it's horrifying. So, that's quite exciting!
Ramin: For me, my whole life's been based on instinct. I’m still not well-versed with musical theatre - I just know what I know based on what I've done! I’ve been trying to reassess what I've got to offer the industry, what I want to contribute, and where I want to serve. I want to start going towards things that pose a challenge, pose a touch of fear. I don't really know much about Sondheim! Not that I'm not a fan, it's just I just don't know enough about it. It's not in my repertoire, it's not in my catalogue. I know a little bit from Prince of Broadway and actually working with Sondheim with Hal Prince there, and doing “Being Alive” for them.
Meow Meow: Whereas I just met him at a Christmas party!
Ramin: Of the few songs I know, everything's absolutely beautiful. But with Rachel Zegler in her concert, she wanted one guest to perform with her. She asked for me, and she asked me to sing “Move On” from Sunday in the Park [with George]. I looked at it and I was like, “Wow, this is beautiful” - it struck me. And then, when I saw Birmingham Rep was doing Sweeney Todd, I phoned my agent, said, “What's happening with that? Who's doing it?” Not that I even thought, if I sit down, do I have what can I offer? I don't know anything about the show. I've not heard it. So, as it happens, I was on top of the list. They were like, “Yeah, we want Ramin to play Sweeney Todd,” and I was like, “Well, let's do it! Let's see what we can excavate and find.”
Meow Meow: That's not quite true, because I was on the top of the list for Sweeney, and then I graciously stepped aside! [Laughs]
I was going to ask what each of your favourite Sondheim musicals are, but I guess I can nix that one now!
Meow Meow: If I get goosebumps, then I know something's cooking. Just listening to the score, I really felt consistent goosebumps, and that's that's thrilling! It's got this huge aura about it - that it's Sondheim. But I see it in the context of, it came from an old whole lot of penny dreadfuls, a whole lot of mythological writings two centuries ago, and then it's a kind of pantomime. Then Christopher Bond writes a play [Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street], Sondheim sees that, and he gets Hugh Wheeler. It’s layers and layers and layers. We've all seen the hilarious Instagram thing going around about “The Worst Pies in London” - there's playfulness within the score. But it really asks, what are we?
When they first asked me to do it, it was at the end of last year, when things were really politically kicking off in a way that you just despair about - these cycles of revenge and hurt. I thought, “I don't know if I want to do something that's glorifying all this murder,” but the more I looked at it, the punishment that occurs, it is a story about what happens if we just keep going in a cycle of blind revenge. I'm having the most ridiculous comedy time in rehearsal, but that's the trick, isn't it? To find things that are really joyful and layered. I’m happy sitting there with my pants on my head, doing a cancan!
How have the rehearsals been going so far?
Meow Meow: Well, I've been sitting there with my pants on my head doing a can-can! Not such a warm response to that, but that's for private times.
Ramin: We just didn't know where it fit in the show, but we try things, see what sticks. You're not letting that one go, though! [Laughs] We’ll see where we can get that in.
Meow Meow: I get goosebumps. I feel it's right. We've got the super duper team. It's a lovely thing working in a big theatre in a rep where there's a workshop and everything's being made here. You've got a brilliant supporting cast. It's an ensemble piece, and the level of expertise within the cast and the team, it's a very safe space to play and make. Everyone's at that level, so it's really thrilling. There's good chemistry on stage, which is really fun to play with, and you need to!
Ramin: There was an instant shorthand, because myself and Meow Meow, we came a week early to work on the music, and they were long days, and were wiped by the end! Some of the music is difficult, but for me, I feel it's difficult, because when you don't know it, everything's difficult, but then it's also going well! As much work as I'm finding on the page, you don't have to do much - you just have to honour it. You still want to put up an opinion behind it - a clear opinion of what I'm trying to say as Sweeney, what Meow is saying as Mrs. L, what we're saying as a production as a whole. It's led brilliantly by Joe Murphy, and it trickles down from the top - it's a fun place to work! It reminds me of what I experienced with Roundabout Theatre with Pirates! [The Penzance Musical] - it was just a joy from beginning to end, and that's because, although everyone had their lanes, there was no hierarchy. We just naturally gave the power to the chair of whoever was speaking, whoever wanted the floor, whoever needed the support. And I feel like that's happened here instantly.
Meow Meow: It's joyful. It's got to be joyful within the discovering, doesn't it? Because I don't think many people do well thinking, “I'm going to show you!” It's a horrible energy if you're not in this place where it's really breathing.
Ramin: And, at the end of the day, it's entertainment too. It is a dark comedy, while each of us will find parallels where we see it's accessible and relates to modern society. And you can go down the political route where, as humans, we're being broken by both sides. I don't think there's any saviour on top.
Meow Meow: It's about the world literally eating itself in agony.
Ramin: But there's still an escapism with this show, and I think that's what's brilliant. What I'm finding is there's still so much humour, and it is entertaining!
Meow Meow: Also, our director is taking it right back to the Georgian times, which is when the original penny dreadfuls were. He sees it as a more heightened period of excess and wildness on the streets of London, where the disparity is so great, and the corruption is great. And that's quite interesting, putting it in a different time, because that's quite a brilliant revisioning that takes it out of being a version of a version of a version. So that's interesting too, because if you look at a lot of the art from that period, it's satire! It's really brutal comics - really contemporary in a lot of ways. I'm the history nerd who likes to go through and find cookbooks from 1790, but because Mrs. Lovett's been cooking for a while, they're earlier ones. So I found old texts on how to make pies and carve meat. It probably only makes its way into one little sprinkle of flour, but I like doing the ridiculous research. What would Mrs. Lovett's ideas of a fancy dress be? I don't think it'd be the height of 1790 fashionables - probably fairly gaudy from a bit before. So it's just fun to bring all of that colour in, because really the score and the words are enough, but you want to create a world around you that lives and breathes.
As someone who specialises in 18th century history, I'm very much appreciating this!
Meow Meow: It's fascinating! It's really when everything's kicking off, like printing presses and Fleet Street. It's just by Covent Garden, Drury Lane, and the Gin Craze has gone nuts. It was a big anti-French movement. It's a fascinating time!
Ramin: That movement remains throughout history here in England!
Meow Meow: But it's interesting! There are certain issues, like, “Ah, the harmonium’s not invented yet, so it’s a spinet!” As our music supervisor said, “The spinet is to the harpsichord what the harmonium was to the piano.” It's fun! But the whole cast is so hilarious, and hearing everyone sing the other day for the first time, it's brilliant casting - everyone is really excellent. It's bristling with energy. That's exciting!
What do you hope that audiences take away from this production?
Ramin: You never want to shovel or shoehorn what you want them to think or take away. I want them to be present and just experience the ride with us.
Meow Meow: That's good. Come on the ride with us! And also, maybe think about what's in them pies before you lick them! But this show's got so many layers. It should be shocking. You're laughing, and then you think, “Oh, what am I laughing at?” It's uproarious, and then you've got this bigger smoke that saturates the darkness. It deals with human survival, but it's not stuff that's just bang on the head. It's a wild look at humanity.
Ramin: And it makes you feel like it's going to pose uncomfortable questions. While it's done in a humorous way, there's this push and pull throughout throughout the score and the book.
Meow Meow: You're rooting for the baddies, then you think, “Oh, they're awful,” and then you think, “Oh, well, I understand.” Sometimes, there's no room for psychological analysis!
Ramin: The show can hold a mirror up against people as well, and that's where it becomes uncomfortable. I just hope they allow themselves to go for that ride, and then just see their takeaways when they leave. Hopefully there's more, like when a show leaves you with discussions afterwards, and this will give you all the above.
Meow Meow: And a little bit of sweat ripped from the excesses of the cast.
Ramin: Maybe a touch of blood droplets here and there!
Meow Meow: You think, “Oh, I can't wait to go to work and roll around and be ridiculous.” That's a nice energy through the terror and intensity of it, because rehearsals can make the text get stuck in a way you want them to open up. Our director is really good at making an environment where the play is big, and therefore the joy level is big.
Ramin: And there's so many different ways you can play these characters and present this show. It's earned its reputation for reasons that are all in the pages.
Meow Meow: Our brilliant music director, Leo Munby, who's done a lot of Sondheim on the West End, he was saying there was this eternal thing about, is it an opera? Is it a musical? Is it a play with music? Sometimes, it depends where you put it, really. I's in an opera house, it's an opera - I like that. It's all things big, big emotion. Also, with Sondheim, I love West Side Story so much. I think that's one of my favourites - and also Gypsy! So, even though I've been sometimes saturated around and about, as it were, in what a prolific creator again, without genres, without boundaries, in his own creativity, that's what's fascinating - not just continuously doing a style of writing. It's an extraordinary creative force to grapple with.
And finally, how would you describe Sweeney Todd in one word?
Ramin: Thrilling
Meow Meow: Intensehilariouslayeredtragicpassionatesonicgenius
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street runs from 4 July to 15 August at The House at Birmingham Rep.
Photo CRedit: Manuel Harlan
