What I can no longer like?

[FranklinDickson2018]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 10:43pm

So following the "Tootsie" thread --- a show I adored unashamedly --- the book, the music, the staging, the singing, EVERYTHING......and the night I went the audience (packed house) was having a GREAT TIME. "Tootsie-bashers" figure that one out.

.However, I  have surmised I can no longer enjoy "Tootsie" and the following shows without becoming accused of transphobia.... 

1. Chicago

2. Sugar

3. South Pacific (remember Honey Bun)

4. Little Me

5. The [future] Mrs. Doubtfire

6. Hairspray

7. Matilda

8. Cages aux folles

9. Peter Pan (obviously a man was kept out of a work so Mary Martin or Sandy Duncan could perform) 

10.  The opera "Der Rosenkavalier" a woman playing a man playing a woman.  How horrible.

11.  The opera "Marriage of Figaro" a woman playing a man.

12. Countless operas of the 19th century

What did I leave out?

Brilliant Drag artists who make a career of being men dressing as women (sometimes outlandishly - with huge breasts and big wigs). I guess I can't like them either? How are they different from Dorothy Michaels?  Their job is to impersonate women to make a living.......and Dorothy does exactly what? 

And of course I can't now enjoy the original recordings of "West Side Story" or  "King and I" or "Evita' or "Flower Drum Song" or so many of the 1950s - 1970s shows because of their "attitudes" and insensitive casting. 

Lest I be accused of every kind of phobia in the world --- for several years I worked with homeless trans people, and also helped minorities find work.  I have great compassion --- I am just not "woke" and I hope I never will be.

You folks who go on and on about "Tootsie" and other shows are destroying the beauty of live theater.  It should be a celebration of diversity and hopefully is trying to be without your "help."  It isn't always perfect --- but dear folks --- life isn't perfect.  Have I been discriminated against in my life?  You bet!!!  For religious reasons, sexual persuasion, gender bias, etc.  Did I become a professional victim?  No....... I just moved on and found success.  And this wasn't in the "woke" 21st century but in the 1990s!!  Please (especially younger people) remember this.  You can triumph.  But don't get so hung up that you can enjoy absolutely nothing........and this is what I see happening over and over. We are more concerned with the birth certificate of a performer than how well they sing. 

So I give up.  You guys have left me nothing to enjoy on Broadway.  No "Kiss Me, Kate", no "My Fair Lady" no "Carousel", NOTHING

And especially not "Tootsie."

Sad times ahead. 

PS I went to Broadwaycon and attended a panel where one of the speakers begged folks to stay off social media (or at least not be so obsessed with it) that it was destroying live theater . I agreed then I agree now. 

 

[Pose2]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 11:04pm

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 11:06pm

Where did you get the idea that you can't like the show? Kind of ridiculous you have this whole rant about how you should like Tootsie, but then act like no one can be critical of it. I have not seen the show, so I am pretty indifferent about it, but it's hard to call the show "not transphobic" from a lot of what I heard. I can tell the show does not do that on purpose, but Tootsie still doesn't seem to acknowledge the huge trope of "man-dressed-as-a-woman" the show relies on. 

Another issue is conflating all those shows that feature either drag or a gender-swapped role with being trans. There is some crossover, but they can still be very different issues. Drag doesn't have to be transphobic (as plenty of trans people star as drag king/queens), but it really can be, especially if it's completely by cis people. Still, it's outrageous that you can't have a show you like be called a little problematic without you claiming you can't any Broadway shows anymore. Slight over reaction, isn't it? If you enjoy Tootsie? I see no problem with that, just if someone sees a problem with that show, act like an adult and deal with it.

Updated On: 8/8/19 at 11:06 PM

[EllieRose2]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 11:07pm

You guys have left me nothing to enjoy on Broadway.

So, random people on the internet are deciding your life for you? 

Jesus. 

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 11:14pm

Dude, just ignore the Twitter stans and enjoy what you like. Life's too short to worry about how random usernames on the Internet are trying to dictate what you can or can't spend your money on.

Updated On: 8/8/19 at 11:14 PM

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 11:22pm

Like whatever you want to like. Simple. 

[copskid949]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 12:29am

I mean I agree the Internet’s been toxic recently but there’s no need to make a big deal. Just ignore it.

[darreyl102]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 12:38am

Explain how HAIRSPRAY is transphobic ? Are you talking about the character of Edna? Because I don't see how that would fall into that category when the character is supposed to be a biological woman, not a man in a dress or a man in drag.

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 1:08am

darreyl102 said: "Explain how HAIRSPRAY is transphobic ? Are you talking about the character of Edna? Because I don't see how that would fall into that category when the character is supposed to be a biological woman, not a man in a dress or a man in drag."

I think it's the same reason OP put Peter Pan and Matilda, it has a role that is meant to be in drag. That is NOT comparable to Tootsie or it's issues whatsoever, but that's what I can understand from their ramblings. 

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 3:13am

Frank Dick, you go ahead and like all the operas of the 19th century you want. I got your back, Frank Dick.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 3:34am

^^^kinda hard to unsee once you've seen it.

[msmp]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 5:35am

darreyl102 said: "Explain how HAIRSPRAY is transphobic ? Are you talking about the character of Edna? Because I don't see how that would fall into that category when the character is supposed to be a biological woman, not a man in a dress or a man in drag."

And the character was written in the first place for Baltimore's famous drag queen, Divine, who was a close friend of director John Waters. They preserved the tradition for the musical and the movie-musical remake.

[magictodo123]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 6:39am

FranklinDickson2018 said: "So following the "Tootsie" thread --- a show I adored unashamedly --- the book, the music, the staging, the singing, EVERYTHING......and the night I went the audience (packed house) was having a GREAT TIME. "Tootsie-bashers" figure that one out.

.However, Ihave surmised I can no longer enjoy "Tootsie" and thefollowing shows without becoming accused of transphobia....

1. Chicago

2. Sugar

3. South Pacific (remember Honey Bun)

4. Little Me

5. The [future] Mrs. Doubtfire

6. Hairspray

7. Matilda

8. Cages aux folles

9. Peter Pan (obviously a man was kept out of a work so Mary Martin or Sandy Duncan could perform)

10. The opera "Der Rosenkavalier" a woman playing a man playing a woman. How horrible.

11. The opera "Marriage of Figaro" a woman playing a man.

12. Countless operas of the 19th century

What did I leave out?

Brilliant Drag artists who make a career of being men dressing as women (sometimes outlandishly - with huge breasts and big wigs). I guess I can't like them either? How are they different from Dorothy Michaels? Their job is to impersonate women to make a living.......and Dorothy does exactly what?

And of course I can't now enjoy the original recordings of "West Side Story" or "King and I" or "Evita' or "Flower Drum Song" or so many of the 1950s - 1970sshows because of their "attitudes" and insensitive casting.

Lest I be accused of every kind of phobia in the world --- for several years I worked with homeless trans people, and also helped minorities find work. I have great compassion --- I am just not "woke" and I hope I never will be.

You folks who go on and on about "Tootsie" and other shows are destroying the beauty of live theater. It should be a celebration of diversity and hopefully is trying to be without your "help."It isn't always perfect --- but dear folks --- life isn't perfect. Have I been discriminated against in my life? You bet!!! For religious reasons, sexual persuasion, gender bias, etc. Did I become a professional victim? No....... I just moved on and found success. And this wasn't in the "woke" 21st century but in the 1990s!! Please (especially younger people) remember this. You can triumph. But don't get so hung up that you can enjoy absolutely nothing........and this is what I see happening over and over. We are more concerned with the birth certificate of a performer than how well they sing.

So I give up. You guys have left me nothing to enjoy on Broadway. No "Kiss Me, Kate", no "My Fair Lady" no "Carousel", NOTHING

And especially not "Tootsie."

Sad times ahead.

PS I went to Broadwaycon and attended a panel where one of the speakers begged folks to stay off social media (or at least not be so obsessed with it) that it was destroying live theater . I agreed then I agree now.

"

I know people who read this thread are going to be like, "stop complaining!" and stuff like that but I TOTALLY get where you're coming from. In todays society, it seems as though things we once liked and thought as amusing, funny, hilarious, what have you, in wake of people changing their gender identity (is that the way to phrase it? that sounds wrong...), things like the #MeToo movement...it seems as though those recent happenings have made it seem as though entertainment is now targeting different sectors of people who are part of those things. It makes it seem as though certain shows are the only ones people can be gushing over, like other shows should not be supported no matter what. Social media, "woke" people, Stan twitter, people with different opinions have no place here in this changing world. I do feel afraid to express my opinion which is WRONG. That shouldn't be the world we live in! I totally get where this post is coming from. 

[After Eight]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 6:55am

FranklinDickson2018 wrote:

 

“You guys have left me nothing to enjoy on Broadway.”

Mission accomplished for the powers-that-be.

You might think of turning to star-gazing or bird-watching. They haven't figured out a way to destroy those pursuits —- at least not yet. Perhaps they'll ban telescopes or binoculars. 

“Sad times ahead.”

Sad times already.

 

 

 

[After Eight]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 7:25am

EllieRose2 wrote:

“So, random people on the internet are deciding your life for you? “

No, not random people on the internet. Rather the producers, critics, award givers, etc. who decide what will be presented for our, ahem, “enjoyment.”  If one is a theatre lover, then yes, others are indeed spoiling and have already spoiled that cherished part  of our lives.

Of course, the elite arbiters of what is acceptable would also dearly love to destroy our memories of the past shows we enjoyed.

Except they can't.

And for that, I am eternally grateful.

And with that, I'm now going to play Dear World, peruse my old Playbills, and bask in the memories.

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 7:40am

I do wish everyone could be happy, but I'm getting tired of being asked to throw away my own culture, my values, and my appreciation for the arts in case it offends some one.

They can pound sand as far as I’m concerned.

Updated On: 8/9/19 at 07:40 AM

[magictodo123]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 7:46am

dmwnc1959 said: "I do wish everyone could be happy, but I'm getting tired of being asked to throw away my own culture, my values, and my appreciation for the arts in case it offends some one.

They can pound sand as far as I’m concerned."

I think over the last day I'm coming to realize that I don't have to apologize for liking what I like. The people who are up in arms about certain shows and the material and everything...I just have GOT to learn how to ignore them. Of course I respect what they're saying, but thanks to people on these boards, I'm going to try to go forward not caring so much about being attacked for appreciating a show. Like someone said--they're just usernames, people who don't even know me shouting into cyberspace. Time to move past them. 

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 7:51am

^ ^ ^ WELL SAID.

And like I’ve said before, let’s not re-envision everything just to make a select few happy. Not everything has to to politically correct. If they don’t like it, don’t watch it. I’m going in regardless of what the haters, doubters, and internet trolls say.

[magictodo123]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 8:18am

dmwnc1959 said: "^ ^ ^ WELL SAID.

And like I’ve said before, let’s not re-envision everything just to make a select few happy. Not everything has to to politically correct. If they don’t like it, don’t watch it. I’m going in regardless of what the haters, doubters, and internet trolls say.

"

Moving forward, this shall be the way I approach those trolls, those people who have a holier than thou attitude. I'm older than them. I don't have time to worry about what they think, what they're upset about (or, as someone on these boards said, what they "clutch their pearls" about (I think?). Okay. I'm ready to try this. It's time to move on. Go ahead and mock me for my opinions on bootlegs (really, it's my stance on those who films shows, not those who watch bootlegs). Go ahead and make fun of me for it. Go ahead. I'm ready to move past your petty need to start drama with strangers you don't even know online. I'm so ready for this!! After all the horrible things that have happened even within just the last week, there is no time for me to even give them a second thought anymore. 

 

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 10:20am

Why is everyone giving such a bad-faith rant this much attention?

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 10:21am

magictodo123 said: "Moving forward...”

(standing ovation) I just turned 60 years old and am a registered Democrat. I have a concert tonight (Toby Mac), it’s payday, all my bills are caught up, getting my Season Tickets for Pittsburgh in the mail today (includes Miss Saigon - gasp!, clutch the pearls!), I’m seeing Hello, Dolly! this Sunday (my 5th time), and I’m most certainly not worried about what people think of me or what I do. There’s not enough time left in my life to be pandering to those I’m not bowing and scraping to. If they don’t like it...well, you know that much already, it involves sand and some pummeling. Now that we’ve had this brief interlude, back to enjoying life.

Updated On: 8/24/19 at 10:21 AM

[jkstheatrescene]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 11:20am

I am offended when people say things like "clutching pearls." It is oysterphobic.

[magictodo123]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 12:20pm

jkstheatrescene said: "I am offended when people say things like "clutching pearls." It is oysterphobic."

Oh my god. Am I a horrible person for giggling at this. hahahhaa

[rosheider]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 1:00pm

You know what is tiresome?  People who post supposedly provocative topics in the form of questions based upon a current social media trope and/or right wing talking point.  You are taking some disparate views expressed by others and trying to make it into an assault on your rights somehow.  It is quite "trans"parent.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/9/19 at 1:24pm

Amen.^