Was Next To Normal A Fluke?

[Alex Kulak2]

I love Next to Normal, but I've felt as though Tom Kitt and Brian Yorkey's subsequent has ranged from let-downs to total duds. Their next Broadway show was If/Then, which was muddled and difficult to even follow. Then they did Freaky Friday, which was decent, but didn't live up to what they showed they could do when dismantling the minutiae of suburbia. Then they broke off and did their own things. Tom Kitt wrote the songs for Superhero, which was bland with nursery-rhyme level lyrics. Brian Yorkey went on to create Thirteen Reasons Why, and I don't even have to tell you what a dumpster fire that show is.

Looking back to Next to Normal, it was a show they spent over a decade writing. It dealt with uncharted territory in musical theatre, it was timely, clever, had a great showcase for a leading actress.

Do you think this is a case of okay writers making a great work by accident? A Sixth Sense or Star Wars, where the planets aligned and the pieces fell together into a masterpiece?

[RippedMan]

I mean, yeah. I think it was a product of the time. It was successful - if not a massive hit - and I think it's brilliant and interesting. But they've proven that they aren't masters at their craft. I love Kitt's orchestrations and maybe that's what he's best at - although from what I've heard of "Flying Over Sunset," it sounds gorgeous. 

Yorkie, I don't know his work. 

[gypsy101]

i think M Night has had some other good movies and the original star wars trilogy are all very good, george lucas has done some other good stuff too

i kind of agree re: N2N. i honestly to this day have never gotten into the score (though i’ve never seen it live so maybe it would click if i had?): most of their other work is mediocre. i liked some of Freaky Friday and also a couple songs from If/Then, plus a couple songs of Kitt’s from Bring It On.

they’re probably not gonna have another show like next to normal

[VintageSnarker]

Alex Kulak2 said: "Their next Broadway show wasIf/Then, which was muddled and difficult to even follow."

I liked most of it and didn't have trouble following it.

Looking back toNext to Normal, it was a show they spent over a decade writing. It dealt with uncharted territory in musical theatre, it was timely, clever, had a great showcase for a leading actress.
I think N2N has issues. But there's also something to be said for a long gestational period to work out most of the flaws instead of working on project after project to pay the bills. A lot of talented/skilled people don't put out consistently brilliant work. For every one outlier like Stephen King, there are tens of writers of crime thrillers and romance novels (books they have to churn out with great regularity) who generally write middling fare with glimpses of brilliance here and there. 


Do you think this is a case of okay writers making a great work by accident? A Sixth Sense or Star Wars, where the planets aligned and the pieces fell together into a masterpiece?"

I think these two examples are different. They are two directors who were given too much creative control. Maybe you have a lot of skill and talent but you shouldn't be the idea guy. Or someone should stop you when you want to complete whitewash Avatar except for the villains. Ron Howard makes a lot of movies. Relatively few get awards attention. It doesn't mean he isn't capable of directing a great movie. But is making a masterpiece the goal?

[pollster2]

Personally, I loved If/Then.

[fashionguru_23]

The out of nowhere Pulitzer Prize is that is messing me up. I think it may have been just been passing through at the right moment in time. How many musicals close, and then its said, "it just wasn't the right time"? A lot. 

I saw Billy Elliot the night "Next to Normal" opened, and heard about the buzz. Then Tony predictions came out, and no one thought that it would win anything against Billy Elliott. Then, I loved the Next to Normal Tony performance, and I had to see the tour when it was coming through. Saw Pearl Sun, Alice Ripley's understudy...really great performance. But, other than a few songs and moments I was underwhelmed by the show. Didn't help that the tour played the opera/ballet theatre...so, imagine that small show at the Met!

I liked "If/Then". I love the score of "Bring It On", and was it ever confirmed who wrote what, other than some of the obvious?

 

[JBroadway]

OP, I’ve been saying this for years!!

I’ve said it on this board many times, and I’ll say it again here:

The only good music Tom Kitt has ever written was for Next to Normal. He is the epitome of blandness - the “king of bland” as I sometimes call him. His music is so boring, that I can actually recognize when a song was written by him, just by how incredibly boring it is. I mean that literally: Sometimes he’ll write a song for a TV show or something, and I’ll hear it, not knowing that it’s him, and I’ll think to myself “only Tom Kitt could write something this devoid of character” and I’ll look at the credits, and it’s actually Tom Kitt.

I do still like the score of Next to Normal, but as you suggested, I think it was just a fluke.

[Broadway61004]

I mean, it was only 12 years ago.  No, Tom Kitt hasn't written anything close to as good as that since, but he's still got 30+ years of a career left, in theory, so I'd hardly say he's going to end up a one-hit-wonder just yet.  Look at Marvin Hamlisch: He wrote Chorus Line in 1975, then had a bunch of completely mediocre work for almost 2 decades (on stage, at least) before finally finding a little bit of later career resurgence with Goodbye Girl and Sweet Smell of Success (both of which of course didn't run long on Broadway but at least have found some regional and critical success).  So I'd say it's more like "he started his career with a near masterpiece and has worked steadily since, TBD if he'll ever reach those heights again".

[Ravenclaw]

I love Next to Normal, and I think they deserved that Pulitzer, but enough can't be said for the contribution Michael Greif made to that piece. It's not for nothing that he directed the original productions of two Pulitzer Prize-winning musicals. Even the writers credit his influence as making the show really come together. When he joined, the show was nearly four hours long, and he helped shape it into what it is now. But also, I believe I read that most of the changes from the off-Broadway production to the Broadway version were Greif's suggestions, and anyone who saw both versions can attest to what a crazy turnaround that show made. It wasn't a complete rewrite, but smart structural changes and strategic rewrites gave the show a clearer point of view and more of a grounding in reality. 

Nothing they've done since has hit that brilliance, but I don't think that they're untalented hacks who got lucky, god knows creating a new musical is the hardest thing on Earth. To me, a lot of their work since Next to Normal shares a quality with that off-Broadway draft--promising material which lacks focus. If/Then is an album I actually listen to quite a bit, but the show itself is more interested in the tricks they can throw you with the dual storyline than in the actual journeys of its characters, much like how the off-Broadway version of Next to Normal leaned too much into the satire. And Freaky Friday was never going to aim to pack the same emotional punch as Next to Normal (nor should it!), and I think it's a wonderful choice for schools to put on.

As for their works apart, I really dislike 13 Reasons Why, but I think that's more than just one man's failure, and I also think that any great artist is allowed some misfires. I remember enjoying The Last Ship quite a bit, though I'll admit I hardly remember anything from it. And for Kitt, I really enjoy the scores of High Fidelity and Bring It On. And he is a great music supervisor and orchestrator, he did an impossible task on Spongebob extremely well.

But at the end of the day, they've only written three musicals together, which I don't think is enough data to call anything a fluke.

[JBroadway]

Ravenclaw said: "I remember enjoyingThe Last Shipquite a bit"

 

I loved Last Ship, but it's sort of hard to gage Yorkey's contribution to it. Sting wrote the music & lyrics, which were the strongest part of the show. And Yorkey CO-WROTE the book with John Logan. Not to mention, the story was inspired by Sting's personal experience, and I feel like it was the personal stuff that worked the best.



"But at the end of the day, they've only written three musicals together, which I don't think is enough data to call anything a fluke."

 

I would agree with you if we are just talking about Yorkey, or just Kitt and Yorkey together. I personally have no artistic grudge against Yorkey. He's far from a genius, but as you pointed out, he hasn't been working steadily enough, or individually enough to really gage his talents. Kitt, on the other hand, has been composing steadily, and in my book, he's just had dud after dud, after dud. IncIuding all of his one-off song-writing commissions. I loved Bring It On, but again, it was so painfully obvious which songs were written by Miranda, and which ones were by Kitt. Because the Kitt songs were tedious and unimaginative, and the Miranda songs were dynamic and tuneful. 

 

"And he is a great music supervisor and orchestrator, he did an impossible task on Spongebobextremely well."

 

I can agree with you there. I thought he did a good job with Spongebob, and I actually really enjoy his arrangements in American Idiot. His work on Jagged Little pill was mixed for me - I liked some of the arrangements more than others, but still, it was all better than his composing work. 

 

[joevitus]

I'd put Maury Yeston into the same category, Nine being his one good score. And it's an amazing score, so tuneful and moving and interesting. Admittedly some of the lyrics are spotty (but not many!). I would have expected this to be the baseline of his talent and to only see him grow and grow. He didn't grow. He wilted. 

[Broadway61004]

joevitus said: "I'd put Maury Yeston into the same category, Nine being his one good score. And it's an amazing score, so tuneful and moving and interesting. Admittedly some of the lyrics are spotty (but not many!). I would have expected this to be the baseline of his talent and to only see him grow and grow. He didn't grow. He wilted."

I'd say that Titanic is also a really beautiful score, actually, just unfortunately one that will always be associated with that absolutely dreadful Broadway production of it.  I'd call him maybe more of a one-and-a-half-hit-wonder.

[joevitus]

Fair point!

[JBroadway]

I actually really enjoy most of Yeston's work. Some of it is a bit bland, but mostly I really like it. And at its best, it can transcendently beautiful. I would actually argue that Titanic is his best score, even better than Nine, and I really enjoy his work on Grand Hotel, and December Songs. For me, Death Takes a Holiday and Phantom both have some beautiful music, but also some bland music. He also had a musical called "In the Beginning" which never made it past workshops and tryouts, but it gave us the song "New Words," which might be my favorite song Yeston has ever written. 

[Jordan Levinson]

I would agree with you if we arejust talking about Yorkey, or just Kitt and Yorkey together. I personally have no artistic grudge against Yorkey. He's far from a genius, but as you pointed out, he hasn't been workingsteadily enough, or individually enough to really gage his talents. Kitt, on the other hand, has been composing steadily, and in my book, he's just had dud after dud, after dud. IncIuding all of his one-offsong-writing commissions. Iloved Bring It On, but again, it was so painfully obvious which songs were written by Miranda, and which ones were by Kitt. Because the Kitt songs were tedious and unimaginative, and the Miranda songs were dynamic and tuneful.



"And he is a great music supervisor and orchestrator, he did an impossible task on Spongebobextremely well."



I can agree with you there. I thought he did a good job with Spongebob, and I actually really enjoy his arrangements inAmerican Idiot. His work on Jagged Little pill was mixed for me - I liked some of the arrangements more than others,but still, it was all better than his composing work.

I wouldn't say Next to Normal was a fluke, though I think it truly is Kitt's best work to date (Yorkey has been mediocre since). His other works have some stunning moments, though:

He did an exceptional job on SpongeBob SquarePants. Such an eclectic score needed a glue stick, and he was just that. American Idiot is the perfect blend of rage and love, and his new arrangements of "21 Guns" and "Whatsername" break my heart. The music in High Fidelity and If/Then is underrated, though not quite as stellar as Next to Normal. I actually found some of his Bring It On ballads to be pretty, but yes, it's the Lin Man that truly makes the show explode. Kitt's arrangements for Jagged Little Pill are straight FIRE and definitely deserving of his recent Drama Desk. Way to do Alanis proud.

 

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

JBroadway said: "I loved Last Ship, but it's sort of hard to gauge Yorkey's contribution to it. Sting wrote the music & lyrics, which were the strongest part of the show. And Yorkey CO-WROTE the book with John Logan. Not to mention, the story was inspired by Sting's personal experience, and I feel like it was the personal stuff that worked the best."

It can't have been much, since the book Yorkey co-wrote with Logan has since been thrown out in favor of one by Lorne Campbell, who directed the subsequent UK touring production.

[Jarethan]

Broadway61004 said: "I mean, it was only 12 years ago. No, Tom Kitt hasn't written anything close to as good as that since, but he's still got 30+ years of a career left, in theory, so I'd hardly say he's going to end up a one-hit-wonder just yet. Look at Marvin Hamlisch: He wrote Chorus Line in 1975, then had a bunch of completely mediocre work for almost 2 decades (on stage, at least) before finally finding a little bit of later career resurgence with Goodbye Girl and Sweet Smell of Success (both of which of course didn't run long on Broadway but at least have found some regional and critical success). So I'd say it's more like "he started his career with a near masterpiece and has worked steadily since, TBD if he'll ever reach those heights again"."

I think your Marvin analogy needs some work.  Everything about The Goodbye Girl was mediocree except the lead performances, and they weren't great.  IMO the score was the worst part.  I was so bored with SSOS that I do not remember noticing a single song.  Of course, neither of them were bad compared to the music in Smile, which I sat through in misery.  There may have been some, but it was not apparent during the performance.   I do acknowledge that that was also the case with the original productions of Mack and Mabel and MerrilyWe Roll Along, so maybe I am remembering them harsher than deserved.

I will also admit that 'i never thought the score to ACL was great.  Good, catchy tunes, not a memorable song in the score.  And please don't say why about 'What I Did for Love'.  IMO it is a second tier power ballad.

Hamlish clearly had ta lot of alent...I just don't think he was a very good Broadway musical composer.  

[VintageSnarker]

Ravenclaw said: "o me, a lot of their work sinceNext to Normalshares a quality with that off-Broadway draft--promising material which lacks focus.If/Thenis an album I actually listen to quite a bit, but the show itself is more interested in the tricks they can throw you with the dual storyline than in the actual journeys of its characters,"

Yes, this is it exactly. In the moment, I was overwhelmed by Idina but now I think it works better as an album where you assume there must have been connective tissue and book scenes that made it hold together as a show.

If you want to talk fluke success... Duncan Sheik. At least as far as his theater work goes.

[jpbran]

You could sorta say the small thing about "Hairspray" and Shaiman/Wittman. Nothing before or since has come remotely close to the critical and commercial success of the Waters adaptation. 

[JBroadway]

VintageSnarker said: "If you want to talk fluke success... Duncan Sheik. At least as far as his theater work goes."

 

Do you mean fluke success in terms of the show's overall commercial and critical trajectory? Or in terms of Sheik's individual work? Because I have actually enjoyed most of Sheik's work, but not always the show itself. The main example of this is Alice By Heart, which I thought was an infuriating dumpster fire of a show, but I've enjoyed listening to several of the songs on the album. Secret Life of Bees drew some criticism for the structure of the book, but most people agreed that the score was quite good, and I would argue that it was his best score to date. The other two I've seen from him were American Psycho, as well as Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice - both were divisive, but I personally really enjoyed both. 

 

[VintageSnarker]

JBroadway said: "VintageSnarker said: "If you want to talk fluke success... Duncan Sheik. At least as far as his theater work goes."



Do you mean fluke success in terms of the show's overall commercial and critical trajectory? Or in terms of Sheik's individual work?"

Sure. But also in terms of artistic merit. Of course, it's a matter of personal opinion. I think Spring Awakening is mediocre and at times... woof. Everything I disliked about that score was magnified in the absolute mess that he contributed for Mother Courage. The songs were so bad it was offensive. I liked the pop songs better than anything he actually wrote for American Psycho. And while I enjoyed a lot of elements of The Secret Life of Bees, I think the strength of the score is that it didn't sound like him at all and, even then, some of the storytelling songs (especially for Lily) are weak. The songs I liked tended to sound more like spirituals and folk songs. Basically, the "Mama Who Bore Me" songs. And I think a lot of work in those songs was carried by the performers and their vocal prowess/acting and not the strength of the music. I almost saw Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice but sometimes... life is too short and it's better to stay home.

[trentsketch]

I think Tom Kitt is an excellent arranger/orchestrator. I love the work he did on Everyday Rapture, American Idiot, Jagged Little Pill, and Spongebob. I remember really liking his music for the Shakespeare in the Park production of The Winter's Tale a few years ago.

I quite like the Freaky Friday score (which Brian Yorkey also worked on), but it's a Disney property meant to be quite safe and commercial. I don't think it was a perfect fit for their style, but they pulled out something I'd gladly music direct for a school or community theatre. If/Then (also with Yorkey) has some great melodies but I think the concept of the show itself didn't work. Bring It On really surprised me when I saw it. The choreography/stunts were the highlight, but that score held its own.

I guess where I stand is a musical can only be as good as its book. The greatest score in the world won't save a bad or poorly written story from tanking a show. 

Next to Normal was certainly a force at the time. The cast, the sets, the lights, the sound, and Michael Grief's direction made a dark show about mental wellness and family drama into an event. I will not be surprised if that goes down in history as the career highlight of many of the people involved in the production. It was a lighting in a bottle kind of moment.

[Ravenclaw]

I also want to add that it really bothers me when a successful artist has a failure (or something less successful than their previous work) and then everyone rushes to redefine their opinion of the artist's previous work. The fact that 13 Reasons Why is a bad show doesn't mean that Yorkey's book and lyrics of Next to Normal are great accidentally. You see this happen all the time in theatre--when Spiderman was on Broadway, suddenly everyone who had been extolling Julie Taymour's genius started saying that Lion King was only successful because of the producers who reigned in her crazy sensibilities. When Ben Platt posts a bad self-tape audition on twitter, people who loved his performance in Dear Evan Hansen say he wasn't actually that great, or he's a one-trick pony. When Jack O'Brien directs a couple of bad revivals while in his late 70s, people start saying that his work on Hairspray was only good because of Jerry Mitchell or his work on Stoppard plays was only good because the texts survived bad direction. I remember a thread here about a year ago about the Glenda Jackson King Lear in which people claimed that Sam Gold didn't actually direct Fun Home, that most of the work was done by a "ghost director" who saved the show. I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that good artists can do bad work. I get the principle that "you're only as good as your last show," but the rewriting of memory is a pervasive problem. The beauty of A Streetcar Named Desire is not invalidated by the latter half of Tennessee Williams's career--he was a genius writer who wrote many great plays and many atrocious plays. I had a teacher who used to point out that in baseball, a batting average of .300 is considered amazing.

[JBroadway]

Ravenclaw said: "I also want to add that it really bothers me when a successful artist has a failure (or something less successful than their previous work) and then everyone rushes to redefine their opinion of the artist's previous work. The fact that13 Reasons Whyis a bad show doesn't mean that Yorkey's book and lyrics ofNext to Normalare great accidentally. You see this happen all the time in theatre--when Spidermanwas on Broadway, suddenly everyone who had been extolling Julie Taymour's genius started saying thatLion Kingwas only successful because of the producers who reigned in her crazy sensibilities. When Ben Platt posts a bad self-tape audition on twitter, people who loved his performance inDear Evan Hansensay he wasn't actually that great, or he's a one-trick pony. When Jack O'Brien directs a couple of bad revivals while in his late 70s, people start saying that his work on Hairspray was only good because of Jerry Mitchell or his work on Stoppard plays was only good because the texts survived bad direction. I remember a thread here about a year ago about the Glenda Jackson King Lear in which people claimed that Sam Gold didn't actually direct Fun Home, that most of the work was done by a "ghost director" who saved the show. I don't know why people find it so hard to believe that good artists can do bad work. I get the principle that "you're only as good as your last show," but the rewriting of memory is a pervasive problem. The beauty ofA Streetcar Named Desireis not invalidated by the latter half of Tennessee Williams's career--he was a genius writer who wrote many great plays and many atrocious plays. I had a teacher who used to point out that in baseball, a batting average of .300 is considered amazing."

 

I agree with every word of your post, including the specific examples you gave. Artists shouldn't judged by failing on the 2nd major project. But the 3rd? The 4th? The 5th? The 6th? At a certain point, you start to see a pattern. 

[Ledaero]

I'm going to add a bit of a dissenting voice into this thread, I don't think Next To Normal is all that great either. Like most people, I was floored by it when it first came out. The cast album was electric and the original production was wonderful. But I've now seen 5-10 productions of it through regional, community, and university theatre, and every time I watch it I just find it exponentially more flawed. Especially Diana's songs. The only stuff that really holds up for me is the Natalie/Henry material. I think the show has a lot of effectiveness in its first viewing when the plot isn't revealed yet, but the whole show feels shallow to me every time I revisit it. 

The plot and character development meander, and the songs sit in a weird place where it grooves like pop/rock but the lyrics are so grounded in drama/scene work that it feels like uncanny valley, to borrow a term from film. It's not really a scene, but it's not a concert performance either. It almost feels like I'm watching the characters sing along to the songs, particularly in pieces like "You Don't Know" and "I'm Alive" where the refrain is so non-dramatic. Pick drama or pick groove, but this weird middle ground is where Kitt lives in so often and I think it's just the worst. His arrangements for American Idiot fall into the same trap, where the songs lose the punk rock style that was core to their groove but they also aren't committed to being dramatic pieces either. He writes arrangements that feel like false attempts at understanding genre and style of popular music, and I slightly blame him for Broadway/jukeboxes thinking they understand pop/rock/rap/etc when really the songs are miles away from the authentic sound. I think Malloy, Lin, and Sheik are really the only mainstream composers out there right now who really understand popular music and how to implement it effectively in musical theatre (though sounds like Sheik is already becoming a debate in this thread).

I don't think Next to Normal was a fluke, I just think Kitt's whole canon has been mediocre at best, dumpster trash at worst. I think he's a good music supervisor, his work on Spongebob was great. His compositions are just not for me.