Is Tootsie Closing Next?- Page 5

[Fredrich Yeager]

Posted: 8/6/19 at 11:46pm

I am also a trans person who works in the theatre industy and I think claims that this show is transphobic are absurd and delegitimize actual concerns trans people have on our hands re: transphobic politicians. Crying wolf when people have explicitly worked to make shows that are respectful of trans people lowers the already poor perception of us as a community, and makes people want to make fewer shows with us in mind, not more. The vast majority of trans people I have talked to have no issue with this show (I actually saw this show with a group of three other trans people). It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. I will write a much longer post, explaining why this show is not offensive if I must (I already have on the main thread about the Tootsie controversy actually), but for now can we just stop peddling that harmful rhetoric and labeling well intentioned people as transphobic?

[magictodo123]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 5:09am

Fredrich Yeager said: "I am also a trans person who works in the theatre industy and I think claims that this show is transphobic are absurd and delegitimize actual concerns trans people have on our hands re: transphobic politicians. Crying wolf when people have explicitly worked to make shows that are respectful of trans people lowers the already poor perception of us as a community, and makes people want to make fewer shows with us in mind, not more. The vast majority of trans people I have talked to have no issue with this show (I actually saw this show with a group of three other trans people). It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. I will write a much longer post, explaining why this show is not offensive if I must (I already have on the main thread about the Tootsie controversy actually), but for now can we just stop peddling that harmful rhetoric and labeling well intentioned people as transphobic?"

 

just so you know, I wrote a post on Twitter about why I saw tootsie knowing a lot of people had problems with it. I immediately got attacked. People called me transphobic, sent me messages that I was harming the community, it totally blew up WAY more than it needed to. I was so upset by what people were saying about me that I actually got distracted and couldn’t focus at work. 

People were already giving me sh*t for having a strong opinion about bootlegs. I didd NOT deserve this treatment. 

 

Why does the community think it’s okay to wish harm upon the actors involved in this? One wished an actor would get hit with a lamp from Hadestown. One wished harm upon an actors pregnant wife. This is taking it way too far and I don’t understand why people don’t get that!!! 

 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 5:27am

Fredrich Yeager said: "I am also a trans person who works in the theatre industy and I think claims that this show is transphobic are absurd and delegitimize actual concerns trans people have on our hands re: transphobic politicians. Crying wolf when people have explicitly worked to make shows that are respectful of trans people lowers the already poor perception of us as a community, and makes people want to make fewer shows with us in mind, not more. The vast majority of trans people I have talked to have no issue with this show (I actually saw this show with a group of three other trans people). It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. I will write a much longer post, explaining why this show is not offensive if I must (I already have on the main thread about the Tootsie controversy actually), but for now can we just stop peddling that harmful rhetoric and labeling well intentioned people as transphobic?"

And please spare me the whole “ then stay off social media” speech. I shouldn’t have to because people don’t know how to be decent human beings and don’t care how their words affect people. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 5:30am

Really enjoyed reading your message- I am seeing the show in October- and I bet I will agree with you- I am a lifelong very liberal Democrat- but this WOKE stuff is not for me. 

[Fredrich Yeager]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 12:07pm

magictodo123 said: "And please spare me the whole “ then stay off social media” speech. I shouldn’t have to because people don’t know how to be decent human beings and don’t care how their words affect people."

I hope there hasn't been some misunderstanding, I'm saying that the show is NOT transphobic. I fully agree with you in that people are absolutely horrible about the show on twitter and post truly horrible things that are indefensible even if the show was transphobic (I also saw the tweets about Santino Fontana's wife - horrifying). And yeah, the stay off social media speech is bs - we shouldn't have to walk on eggshells on the internet because some manbaby or "woke teen uwu" never learned how to be nice to others.

 

[youdontgetit]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 1:51pm

Fredrich Yeager said: "I am also a trans person who works in the theatre industy and I think claims that this show is transphobic are absurd and delegitimize actual concerns trans people have on our hands re: transphobic politicians. Crying wolf when people have explicitly worked to make shows that are respectful of trans people lowers the already poor perception of us as a community, and makes people want to make fewer shows with us in mind, not more. The vast majority of trans people I have talked to have no issue with this show (I actually saw this show with a group of three other trans people). It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. I will write a much longer post, explaining why this show is not offensive if I must (I already have on the main thread about the Tootsie controversy actually), but for now can we just stop peddling that harmful rhetoric and labeling well intentioned people as transphobic?"

 
Thank you for sharing your perspective.

[edit: you did in fact ask a question] To address your question, I am not on Twitter so I can't really speak to those who do and say whether they should or should not stop. I do believe that if a trans person thinks something is transphobic, calling it out is recommended, otherwise the thing has an opportunity to spread (not that you need transphobia 101, I'm sure you know how it goes first hand). For me and my colleagues working to educate folx on the problematic, inherently transphobic nature of this show, we are not labeling someone as transphobic for writing, acting, or seeing the show, so the request to stop does not coincide with your request.

Sending you a lot of good vibes. 

 

Updated On: 8/7/19 at 01:51 PM

[Jayar2]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 3:55pm

I've seen Tootsie, and personally, I don't see this--

 

trans·pho·bic

/ˌtranzˈfōbik/

adjective

adjective: transphobic

1. having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

[youdontgetit]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 4:14pm

Jayar2 said: "

I've seen Tootsie, and personally, I don't see this--

 

trans·pho·bic

/ˌtranzˈfōbik/

adjective

adjective: transphobic

1. having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

"

Volunteering a response here, but that's because it's not on the surface. It's not like they are taking intentional swings at the trans community because they outwardly don't like or are openly ignorant about trans people or think they have their minds made up about trans people. This isn't Dave Chappelle level transphobia we're talking about. 

Updated On: 8/7/19 at 04:14 PM

[youdontgetit]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 4:27pm

magictodo123 said: Why does the community think it’s okay to wish harm upon the actors involved in this? "

 

Part of the problem with this entire thing is that I constantly see people make a group of folx on social media into being the gate keepers of the entire TGNC community which somehow now gives folx ammunition to feel defensive and lump us all together as one. To say THE community thinks it's okay to wish harm on actors involved in Tootsie is mortifying, and I'm mortified that nobody on this board seems to feel the need to call this out as BS. That's some Tomi Lahren-like stuff going on there. No, in fact THE community does not think it's okay to wish harm on anyone involved in Tootise, and if a few members with a platform do - that's a sorry mess of a mindset - but it's also not what I'm focused on right now. Clearly the community is just as divided and nuanced as any other as not all TGNC folx see the transphobic nature of this show, and on a psychological level - I can rationalize why they would come to the defense of others and not see it - but that does not dismiss the show of its problems. 

 

Updated On: 8/7/19 at 04:27 PM

[youdontgetit]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 4:33pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "I am a lifelong very liberal Democrat- but this WOKE stuff is not for me."

I will remind folx that being a Democrat - liberal, very liberal, or otherwise - does not make you immune to supporting things that are problematic. If my being a trans person who calls out and works to help educate people from creating transphobic work is not for you, please let me know how I - and others in my community - can help reach you in a way that is effective. 

 

[Huss417]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 4:39pm

youdontgetit said: "BWAY Baby2 said: "I am a lifelong very liberal Democrat- but this WOKE stuff is not for me."

I will remind folx that being a Democrat - liberal, very liberal, or otherwise - does not make you immune to supporting things that are problematic. If my being a trans person who calls out and works to help educate people from creating transphobic work is not for you, please let me know how I - and others in my community - can help reach you in a way that is effective.

"

You are new here why not sit back and get an overall feel for the room. :)

Oh and welcome to BWW. :)

 

[youdontgetit]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 4:45pm

Huss417 said: "You are new here why not sit back and get an overall feel for the room. :)

Oh and welcome to BWW. :)"

 

Thank you! I'm new to posting here, yes. This is an account I created specifically to communicate. But I've been a lurker on these boards for a few years now. Sort of a funny metaphor for what I think many in the TGNC are feeling in regard to this topic even: we've been around for awhile, we've watched it happen many many many times, and we're finally speaking up. We're not new, we're just new to you! Would love to hear what benefit you think would come of my sitting back further and what you anticipate I might discover by doing so. (did I misinterpret what you said? that's possible...) 

 

 

 

[Pose2]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 5:36pm

 It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. 

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

[Jarethan]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 6:16pm

The issue is not about transphobia one speck; if people want to make it about that, let 'em'.  

The issue is about word of mouth on the show.  Many of (most of?) the people on this board do not represent the larger world of theatregoers who see a limited number of shows a year and have seen the price of tickets go up! up! up!

Unlike many posters here who will buy tickets to shows that they know are seriously flawed / boring (based on WOM, reviews, etc.), the average occasional theatergoer is not going to rush to the box office if people are telling them it is just okay or lousy or terrific except for the mediocre score (IMO rotten score).  If the show had been liked more and word of mouth was better, it would be doing better at the box office.

Re 'everyone in the theatre loved the show' comments, I laughed out loud multiple times throughout the show because of the terrific book; i probably seemed like I was loving the show based on those laughs. That was not the case. I enjoyed the show when it was a comedy, disliked it mega when it was being a musical.  The score was mostly awful; the choreographer either had no imagination or was hindered by the lack of a decent score with which to work.  Hell, the Act 1 closing number, which got middling applause when I saw it was the best they could do at the Tony's, and that number did them no favors.  The number was flat, because the song was lousy and etc.  I imagine they probably did it to show both Michael and Dorothy, but they would have been better off having a different number, if there was actually one that was any good.  IMO the two good songs were the patter song performed by the past girlfriend and the torch song (as I remember it) sung by the co-star initially in the subway.  I can't remember the characters' names.  Neither of those were going to do the show any favors either, in the 'if this is the best number...' way of thinking.

That is the reason the show is not doing well.

[Kitsune]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 6:34pm

youdontgetit said: "magictodo123 said: "VotePeron said:People have been so, so adamant about calling it transphobic. I just don't understand why they don't focus their energy elsewhere. But I also agree with you- I have noticed that aside from saying "thanks for coming" to people who see the show when they express how much they liked it on Twitter, social media for the show has been surprisingly quiet. When that t-shirt/merchandise fiasco happened, they pulled the shirt, but they didn't say anything about it. They've been very quiet. I'm actually very surprised about this."

Okay, so I'm a lurker of this message board and have been following all Tootsie related things for awhile now. I'm trans and I work in the theater industry in NY. I am choosing to remain anonymous and that will remain. It seems, with all due respect, there's a lot of pearl-clutching on this board over the idea that this show may actually be incredibly problematic. A few high profile articles have come out about it and yet it still doesn't seem to click. As someone who has been working on the inside to address the issues with this and the upcoming production of Mrs. Doubtfirein Seattle, I'm making myself available to answer your questions about why these shows feed into the same logic that has (for example) been recently seen by politicians trying to ban us from using bathrooms that correlate with our actual gender. This is not an opportunity for trans 101, by the way. You have google for that. This is also not an opportunity for free consulting. I get paid to do that. This is specifically about this show.

"

Here's a question:

1. The "mistaken gender identity" trope has a long history in theater, film, etc. I'm thinking Some Like It Hot, Twelfth Night, Mrs. Doubtfire, etc. You could say it's a classic trope. At the same time, we live in a world where the "man in a dress panic" has been used to justify violence against transwomen. What role does this "mistaken gender identity" trope then have in the modern world, especially as we recreate classic?

(For what it's worth: I saw Tootsie pre-Tonys, and had a decent time. My impression was that the creators didn't set out to create Transphobia: The Musical. But regardless of intent, there were moments that made me wince. 

In any case, I'm cisgender, and I'm not going to tell trans people (or anyone else) what they should or shouldn't be offended by).

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 7:08pm

My issue with the show is not that it was transphobic, but that it was just so unbelievably bland in every aspect except for the book. 

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 9:09pm

I’m having a hard time seeing the “hidden letters transphobia unless you’re referring to the mistaken identity thing which goes back to Shakespeare - and maybe Greek Tragedy if I knew my theater history better. I don’t see people threatening to shut down every production of Twelfth Night? So why does this strike a chord so much?

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 9:31pm

Yeah as I said, I wonder if they’d threaten actors if a musical of Some Like It Hot made it to B’way. It’s gross, this manufactured outrage, it’s The Great Comet all over again. 

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 10:39pm

Exactly. It’s like, I can kind of see the point, but also think they’re figuring a group of people who are probably 100% on their side. There are so many bigger battles.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 8/7/19 at 11:08pm

The only difference was TGC had  a great score and one of the most inventive productions of all time. 

Tootsie is a B- musical. 

[Jarethan]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 1:58am

poisonivy2 said: "The only difference was TGC had a great score and one of the most inventive productions of all time.

Tootsie is a B- musical."

I think you are right, maybe even a little generous.  Great book - A; excellent cast - A-; tacky sets - C-; pretty awful score - D- or F; pedestrian choreography - C-; adequate direction - C.

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 2:22am

SouthernCakes said: "I don’t see people threatening to shut down every production of Twelfth Night? So why does this strike a chord so much?"

Trans issues are very complicated, but Twelfth Night is slightly different as it's a woman pretending to be a man. Trans-men usually aren't victimized in the same way trans-women are, as (for the most part) transphobes joke about a "man-in-a-dress". As transphobes just see trans-men as "not men", it's no threat to them, but a "man-in-a-dress" for them is, which then becomes a joke. That then becomes a trope of not seeing trans-women who they are, women. They still don't see trans-men as men either, but it's not a harmful trope, so woman can joke about dressing as men and trans-men (as far as I'm aware) don't find it offensive. 

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 3:17am

Look at BOM---it offended everyone and everything and still packing them in--everywhere. Tootsie has gone so far the other way to not be offensive[not seen].

Reading the above verbal battles about the rights[pun] and wrongs it's a wonder that writers are game to write anything these days.

 

 

[Gizmo6]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 6:08am

I’m a queer academic, as I’ve said before, but you cannot win with one section of the transgender movement. As someone pointed out sometimes these kids aren’t even part of the LGBTQI+ community.

Transgender ideology has moved to the stage where they have become the gender binary police.

There is now cis and pre-cis. Many do not want to see themselves as a distinct group T or part of the LGBTQI+ community as a whole.

Pose FX completely erased drag queens from the Ball Culture because it’s now offensive to be a man in a dress!

Not every man in a dress is transgender or wants to be a woman. It’s especially frustrating that the movement will deny the likes of Marsha P Johnson her self-identified identity because it doesn’t fit with current trans ideology.

In the UK we are fighting real life TERFs like Graham Linehan but the community is focused on in-fighting and the erasure of queer identity.

[The Other One]

Posted: 8/8/19 at 7:18am

What really bugs the trans community about this show is that it is not about them at all, and I do not think their response to it has much if anything to do with its lack of box-office success.