Name Change for Gypsy Robe Ceremony- Page 2

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 6:10pm

Since when in the hell was this a problem?!?

[NOWaWarning]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 6:11pm

For those who are upset about the name change, can you explain why? Are you particularly attached to calling it a Gypsy Robe for some specific reason? Are you really angry that Equity is trying to be sensitive to people who find the word offensive and archaic? I just truly do not understand what difference it makes. The tradition will still continue.

[Back Row]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 6:24pm

I think they should just call it "Bob". 

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 7:29pm

I agree with changing the ceremony name- no need to sully a great tradition with a name that’s only going I be more and more of a cringe every year.

Regarding the musical Gypsy, it’s not going anywhere- YET. But I do wonder if there’s gonna be a tipping point, where the musical starts to get sidelined for the name of its central figure. Imagine if Louise took the stage name Ching Chong Lee or Mammy Coon Lee- would the masterpiece status still stand, or would the tastelessness of the name dilute the rest?

[PatrickDC]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 7:44pm

Why would the musical's name need to be changed? It refers to a character -- and in this case, a real person who existed -- not to a group of people or in a racist slur kind of way. I assume the creators named the show in reference to the Louise's stage name, not the traveling around the family did. 

[orlikethecolorpurple]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 7:45pm

I will NEVER understand when people have an aversion to inclusion, sensitivity, or change. Move along or go extinct already. Talk about snowflakes, my god.

[Trish2]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 9:52pm

I certainly hope this controversy doesn’t keep “Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves” out of THE CHER SHOW!

[darquegk]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 9:55pm

I know they won’t ever change the musical name, nor should they. I’m just wondering if someday it’ll become a taboo across the board.

[astromiami]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 9:56pm

orlikethecolorpurple said: "I will NEVER understand when people have an aversion to inclusion, sensitivity, or change. Move along or go extinct already. Talk about snowflakes, my god."

They already took away n*gg*r and k*ke and ch*nk and sp*c. How are they supposed to feel good about themselves if they cannot put someone else down?

 

[sabrelady]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 10:18pm

haterobics said: "behindthescenes2 said: "you point the finger of just how horrible white people are when there is really no solid foundation for this stupid gesture."

Err... Hitler was white. #caseclosed"

 

And Idi Amin was Black and Pol Pot Cambodian-  Anybody can be a sociopath murderer regardless of race. #casereopened

 

[sabrelady]

Posted: 4/18/18 at 10:30pm

Well, at least we'll be spared a revival of "APPLAUSE". I mean "She's No Longer a Gypsy" could be construed as Eve forsaking her kulture! ( and it's one of the big dance numbers)

Meh, call it the  Longest Performing Member of the Nomadic Tribe of The Chorus Robe.

Unfortunately

this is what keeps jumping into my head

[binau]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 4:24am

sabrelady said: "haterobics said: "behindthescenes2 said: "you point the finger of just how horrible white people are when there is really no solid foundation for this stupid gesture."

Err... Hitler was white. #caseclosed"



And Idi Amin was Black and Pol Pot Cambodian- Anybody can be a sociopath murderer regardless of race. #casereopened

"

Yeah I assume the poster knows this and was making fun - no one would be stupid enough to claim there is a causal relationship between skin colour and mass murder (cf. the relationship between certain theology and mass murder, homophobia and sexism - where specific beliefs influence specific behaviors).   

 

[rjm516]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 5:09am

I think most of the people outraged by the change here are Americans, right? In Europe, this is a hugely offensive word to the Roma people and it's a big deal. So this is a great change that literally affects nothing negatively. And it's not going to affect Gypsy the Musical; it's silly to assume that.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 7:03am

Good on them! I admit, I hadn't even thought of the connotation previously, because I know the intent. Doesn't change anything.

For those saying it is meaningless or empty or where did this need come from....Do Romni people have to make a stink before someone makes a change? Perhaps they've had letters expressing concern, perhaps not. And even if no single person has uttered a word....that makes the decision to be proactive even BETTER!

[newintown]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 10:39am

Interesting. I've always considered the word (at least in American culture) utterly innocuous, with a simple meaning akin to "nomad." We moved often when I was a child, and my mother called us "gypsies" with a sense of pride (she liked moving, having done it frequently as a child herself, growing up extremely poor and often having to jump abodes in the middle of the night).

There are also a great number of place names in the US incorporating the word - I wonder if there'll be a move to rename them all? And, if Applause is ever revived, will that song need to be changed, like the unfortunate number in The Fantasticks that's misinterpreted?

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 11:09am

Theatre is living and breathing and the idea is to communicate your intent and message to the audiences effectively. If something like a word or term used becomes problematic because society has evolved in a certain way, then there's a need to adapt to it as well because otherwise you're just causing confusion and taking attention away from the story, message, of the show or ceremony (like the robe ceremony). Of course, you can't change the actual script without permission from the author or the estate if the author grants permission to the estate to make grant those kinds of permissions. Then it becomes a conversation of whether the work needs to be done but that's another topic.

I don't get why people are so attached to this word in this context other than just wanting to complain about overall "PC" culture and wanting to use the overused and now meaningless term "snowflake" again. especially in the fact of learning what this word actually conveys and the history behind it.

I get the call to tradition and not everything should be thrown away just because it's old and traditional things have a lot of value, but there are such things as negative traditions AND it's not like another word couldn't be used to convey the same message (though those choice of replacement names makes me think they should go back to the drawing board on that one). It's only been in tradition for 60 years. That sounds like a lot, but in the grand scheme of other ceremonies, events, organizations, businesses, and others that have changed their name, it's really not that long. They survived and this ceremony will too.

To me, balancing the usage of the word in this context and endearment some feel about it in the theatre tradition with what it means to Roma people and how it's been used outside the context of theatre and much more widely, I think we can prioritize a disenfranchised group of people and most others who understand the history of this word (even the loved theatre usage is based on negative stereotypes of the Roma people) and do not want to continue using it. 

Updated On: 4/19/18 at 11:09 AM

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 12:20pm

From Aaron Albano:

http://www.theensemblist.com/blog/2018/4/19/why-cant-the-union-do-both

Sorry that it's not clickable.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 12:31pm

LizzieCurry said: "From Aaron Albano:

http://www.theensemblist.com/blog/2018/4/19/why-cant-the-union-do-both

Sorry that it's not clickable."

That was well put. I liked Albano's quote here: 

"Yes, for me, there is a tragedy in losing this word that I held dear. But also for me, it is a small price to pay for the inclusion and validation of people who are not me. And while the word is lost, the values it stood for are not, and I have faith that we will find an equal, less offensive, more appropriate word to stand for the community I love and cherish."

[AlfredDrakeII]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 1:11pm

I agree with the original post.

I am far from a privileged white male.

The arrogant and pretentious replies from the Far Left extremists (who do not realize that they are extremists) on this board, which dominate our industry, only serve as further evidence why more and more people are refusing to align themselves with so-called "Liberals" and "Progressives", who are driving ACTUAL liberals far, far away.

How many more elections (or referendums, if you're British) do you have to lose to understand that what you view as "Progress" has been rejected by the masses, and furthermore has become nothing more than moral grandstanding and bullying to everyone outside of your bubble?

Do yourselves a favor, visit YouTube and search for videos on "Why I left the Left". You'll find an overwhelming number of people who used to see the world exactly as many of the posters here, and yet within the last couple years (especially in 2016) have found themselves completely alienated because they refuse to be held hostage to the ever-expanding list of grievances of increasingly niche demographics of people.

Of course these views will have me tarred and feathered by triggered snowflakes,who will presume I am some kind of coldhearted bigot...exactly the kind of attitude that, as I said, is driving people away from your movement.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 1:30pm

AlfredDrakeII said: "I agree with the original post.

I am far from a privileged white male.

The arrogant and pretentious replies from the Far Left extremists (who do not realize that they are extremists) on this board, which dominate our industry, only serve as further evidence why more and more people are refusing to align themselves with so-called "Liberals" and "Progressives", who are driving ACTUAL liberals far, far away.

How many more elections (or referendums, if you're British) do you have to lose to understand that what you view as "Progress" has been rejected by the masses, and furthermore has become nothing more than moral grandstanding and bullying to everyone outside of your bubble?

Do yourselves a favor, visit YouTube and search for videos on "Why I left the Left". You'll find an overwhelming number of people who used to see the world exactly as many of the posters here, and yet within the last couple years (especially in 2016) have found themselves completely alienated because they refuse to be held hostage to the ever-expanding list of grievances of increasingly niche demographics of people.

Of course these views will have me tarred and feathered by triggered snowflakes,who will presume I am some kind of coldhearted bigot...exactly the kind of attitude that, as I said, is driving people away from your movement.
"

If I’m in a room of twenty people and I use a term that one person finds deeply offensive in terms of their race or hertigage-I’d alter my behaviour to make sure that one person felt included. Call it niche if you wish, I call it  empathy and understanding. There is a difference between the idea of ‘soon I don’t be able to say anything’ that is tossed around by scaremongers and the aforementioned example

If I wish to use bad language, for example or I always speak my mind or I break wind at the dinner table - then I might decide I don’t care if anyone is offended. The difference is, that is someone being directly offended by me and how I choose to behave - that right is being taken away fron

abyhody. The other is that someone is offended because my rhetoric recalls something historically directly offensive to that person. Is using the term really so important to you that you can’t simply embrace change that makes another human being feel equal to you? 

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 2:03pm

Gypsy Rose Lee was Louise. She got the nickname Gypsy for the SAME EXACT REASON the robe got the nickname. So, if you’re offended by the robe, you should be offended by her “name”. It’s a nickname used in the SAME WAY the robe’s is used.

Duh.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 2:15pm

Shirley MacLaine was proud to be a gypsy. 

 

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 2:18pm

AlfredDrakeII said: "I agree with the original post.

I am far from a privileged white male.

The arrogant and pretentious replies from the Far Left extremists (who do not realize that they are extremists) on this board, which dominate our industry, only serve as further evidence why more and more people are refusing to align themselves with so-called "Liberals" and "Progressives", who are driving ACTUAL liberals far, far away.

How many more elections (or referendums, if you're British) do you have to lose to understand that what you view as "Progress" has been rejected by the masses, and furthermore has become nothing more than moral grandstanding and bullying to everyone outside of your bubble?

Do yourselves a favor, visit YouTube and search for videos on "Why I left the Left". You'll find an overwhelming number of people who used to see the world exactly as many of the posters here, and yet within the last couple years (especially in 2016) have found themselves completely alienated because they refuse to be held hostage to the ever-expanding list of grievances of increasingly niche demographics of people.

Of course these views will have me tarred and feathered by triggered snowflakes,who will presume I am some kind of coldhearted bigot...exactly the kind of attitude that, as I said, is driving people away from your movement.
"

I think the extremities on both sides like to downplay the issues real people care about and call them niche. Who decides who gets to be the arbiter of which demographic is "niche" and which demographic is not? You? There is a reason why minorities are considered minorities and have been shown to be easily oppressed or silenced. Some times people will reject certain points-of-view or fights because they are seen as too fringe or whatever, but some times those "fringe" issues attract the attention of allies and the mainstream and will result in change. A few cracked eggs but the omelette is worth it if it means more inclusion and less groups feeling unheard. 

I often find the people who most complain when a group of people who are speaking out about an issue that is new TO THEM and their first reaction is a knee jerk rejection and they maintain in way that is not conducive to conversation or understanding even if they still disagree but rather to antagonize and demonize are people who are just as bad as the extreme left they are accusing others of being. It's all about staying in your corner and stubbornly standing by your position no matter what. Adversarial system of discussion has its merits but this is a major draw back.

Also, I'm quite familiar with the self-identified right wing pundits or far-right or alt-right's presence on social media and YouTube...especially the old tactic of "why I left the left." Most moderate self-identified leftists who disagree with the far-left or even blowback on "niche" interests don't abandon the left because of that because ultimately they still believe in what they believe to be progressive and leftist values. The issue is that those people were really conservative and loved the status quo but don't like to be labeled otherwise until they can first convince others how "crazy" and "extreme" and "out-of-touch" the left is so they don't have to take responsibility or face the truth over who they really are.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 2:21pm

Liza Minnelli has always considered herself a gypsy.

 

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/19/18 at 2:22pm

Eydie Gorme had the gypsy in her soul.