Anais Mitchell blames the patriarchy for people wanting perfect rhymes in theatre songs. Seriously.- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/9/19 at 10:19pm

HogansHero said: "The only thing I see that has run amok is this thread LOL.

There is a broader point, that does not rely on the patriarchy theory, which is, at best, debatable. I would think we can all agree that there are demographics in which perfection and, for lack of a better term, completion, are of elevated importance. And others in which they are not. And those broader characteristics can correlate to how one views perfect rhymes. As with so much else we talk about here, it is about resonance, not intelligence, and about intention, not ability. At the end of the day, it's art, and we denigrate art when we pretend that there is right art and wrong art."

Since you reference a previous post of mine, I wish you had read it. I never said anything about "right" or "wrong" art. I just voted in an online poll for HADESTOWN as best OBCR of 2019.

What I actually said was that perfect rhymes serve a specific purpose in the theater, where lyrics must compete with a lot of other elements.

I used the word "amok" to refer to a silly theory equating perfect rhymes with male orgasms. Try telling that theory to Dorothy Fields, Lynn Ahrens, Betty Comden, Carolyn Leigh, et al., any of whom could have written a rhyming dictionary. (I realize many of the ladies I invoke are dead; you can find them in musical-comedy heaven.)

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/9/19 at 11:56pm

GavestonPS said: "Since you reference a previous post of mine, I wish you had read it. I never said anything about "right" or "wrong" art. I just voted in an online poll for HADESTOWN as best OBCR of 2019.

What I actually said was that perfect rhymes serve a specific purpose in the theater, where lyrics must compete with a lot of other elements.
I used the word "amok" to refer to a silly theory equating perfect rhymes with male orgasms. "

First of all, I read every word you wrote (as I usually do). I was not referencing anything you said by swiping "amok"; I just liked the expression. But now that you bring it up, your penultimate paragraph is purely about "right and wrong" whether you invoke the words or not. That purpose is something your ears (and you are by no means alone) have been conditioned to think serves a purpose (which is fine) but it is not "right" in some objective way. And last of all, we agree about the other silliness.

[Zion24]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 12:23am

Havent read through all of these posts ( i will try) but it strikes me as perfectly reasonable to debate whether rhyming lyrics are better/worse/necessary/preferable. I thought Hadestown's music was its highlight and didnt mind one bit how it was lyrically constructed.

But to cast something you choose not to do (something that is harder to do: rhyme) as The Patriarchy! is not only shockingly immature, its infuriating to those of us who know that a patriarchal society does exist, has done lots of harm these past few centuries, and has absolutely nothing to do with the white men who write beautiful show tunes. jeeeeesus.

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 12:59am

Sondheim wrote literally two text books on perfect rhyme.
And it drove home to me why it actually is so important to the storytelling of the medium.


If you look at the past, near rhyme has never worked that great in musical theatre.

Spring Awakening? What person is ever praising the LYRICS of Spring Awakening. Duncan Sheik’s music is remembered cause it’s haunting and beautiful. The lyrics we sorta deal with cause it’s what we’re stuck with.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 1:59am

BUT SONDHEIM HAS A PENIS SO DOWN WITH HIM AND HIS PATRIARCHAL LYRICS!

[NightMusic3]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 2:06am

Sondheim believes perfect rhymes to be important in writing musical theatre lyrics because of their ability to help audiences understand what's being sung to them. Hearing "weather" at the end of a line anticipates a word such as "together". A word like "forever", however, is not quite the same sound, and consequently, there may be a delay in the listener's comprehension of the lyric. This is not such an issue with popular music as the listener can playback and/or pause the recorded music. Obviously this is not the case with live theatre.

Of course, he acknowledges this tradition originated in the age before amplification when audiences had to focus more to understand the words. The current ability to mic actors coupled with the fact that nearly every generation alive today has been raised on imperfect rhymes in music probably allows more lyricists to get away with not using perfect ones. It's not as important a feature as it once was.

Updated On: 12/10/19 at 02:06 AM

[bk]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 3:20am

Who is this nincompoop and why does anyone care what this nincompoop says on Twitter? Discuss.

[A Director]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 3:45am

bk said: "Who is this nincompoop and why does anyone care what this nincompoop says on Twitter? Discuss."

Anais Mitchell won the 2019 Tony Award for Best Score for HADESTOWN. The show won Best Musical.

For more information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaïs_Mitchell

BK what have you done and why should anyone care? Discuss!

 

[binau]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 3:47am

Because no matter how ridiculous the claim all anyone has to do these days is claim men are the scum of the earth and a bunch of followers will applause and chant YASSSS QUEEN.

[A Director]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 3:54am

qolbinau said: "Because no matter how ridiculous the claim all anyone has to do these days is claim men are the scum of the earth and a bunch of followers will applause and chant YASSSS QUEEN."

Pray tell, how do you feel about Islam and Muslims today?  Any new ridiculous claims!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 8:14am

HogansHero said: "First of all, I read every word you wrote (as I usually do). I was not referencing anything you said by swiping "amok"; I just liked the expression. But now that you bring it up, your penultimate paragraph is purely about"right and wrong" whether you invoke the words or not. That purpose is something your ears (and you are by no means alone) have been conditioned to think serves a purpose (which is fine) but it is not "right" in some objective way. And last of all, we agree about the other silliness."

Fair enough. But what I said was that perfect rhymes perform a certain function (lyric clarity) in the THEATER that isn't necessarily present in other media. Once the listener recognizes the rhyme scheme (consciously or unconsciously), s/he knows each rhyming word can only be a finite number of words (in most cases, a mere handful); this makes it easier to hear the lyrics once one has some experience with American musicals and has been "taught" what to expect.

I suppose this is "better" if your primary aim is clarity, but that is not always the most important thing going on. In some cases, the tension of perfect rhyming may interfere with the intended feeling among listeners. (I suspect something like this is what Mitchell would have said/written if she knew better.) Much of pop music does this--whether through incompetence or intention--which is fine, since pop is designed to be heard multiple times at ideal volume with less competition.

But neither style is necessarily "wrong". I'm not so elitist as to think so. I don't think Sondheim has many equals, but I would count Springsteen and Leonard Cohen, and maybe even Billy Joel and Don Henley, among them. The latter four all use imperfect rhymes with frequency, as I'm sure you know.

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 9:26am

Jordan Catalano said: "BUT SONDHEIM HAS A PENIS SO DOWN WITH HIM AND HIS PATRIARCHAL LYRICS!"

How dare you assume Sondheim has a penis.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 9:28am

Ugh that was wrong of me. Only a man would assume that.

[binau]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 12:31pm

A Director said: "qolbinau said: "Because no matter how ridiculous the claim all anyone has to do these days is claim men are the scum of the earth and a bunch of followers will applause and chant YASSSS QUEEN."

Pray tell, how do you feel about Islam and Muslims today? Any new ridiculous claims!"

I suppose her claim has a lot in common with Christian, Islamic and Jewish beliefs: fiction. 

[AADA81]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 12:42pm

There is such a thing as craft in songwriting.  The use of rhymes at the end of phrases, the use of internal rhymes or the choice to not use rhyming at all should be in service to the meaning or point of the lyric or the expression of character.  Our patriarchal culture gets blamed for a lot of things, many of them valid, but if you really believe it's responsible for perfect rhymes in theater songs, then there's this bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell to you......

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 12:53pm

Eh, she's probably right. You can basically trace everything back to men being a-holes.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 9:07pm

@Gavy

I don't think there is ALL that much air between what we are saying. I think the main distance is on the subject of what I called "to your ear." I think people interested in musical theatre "learn" that perfect rhymes are "the craft." I think you acknowledge something close to that, that they are taught what to expect. We both know there is no right or wrong answer here, and it does not really matter whether any of us agree because we are all entitled to our taste. (I do think that the education of lyricists for musical theatre tends to convey a different idea, and we find as a result a lot of force that is never pretty. (And maybe that could be sourced in a patriarchy, though I doubt its bona fides.) One other thing you mention is about rhymes as interference. I remember quite a few years ago a bookwriter opining that perfect rhymes take some audience out of the story. I've said that more or less as well. Something to ponder. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/10/19 at 11:39pm

Hogan, you are absolutely right. We agree here, we're just clarifying our thoughts, pun intended.

Two things we haven't mentioned:

Perfect rhymes got a bad rap (back in the 1950s and 1960s) because the rigid pursuit of them resulted in so many banal, moon-June-spoon lyrics. Songwriters like Bob Dylan thought it more important to have something to say with each line than to make perfect rhymes.

And sometimes a perfect rhyme knocks you out of the moment because it foreshadows too clearly what is coming. When, in WORKING, the truck driver sings a line that ends with "brother trucker", even on first listen you already know the next rhyme coming will be "motherf----r"! What else could it be?

[darquegk]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 8:07am

The pop single version from James Taylor's "Flag" album has a much better lyric there: "come on, sucker/come back, brother trucker." It's both appropriate to the song's narrative and a very clever pun/euphemism.

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 8:44am

Can't believe I missed a conversation about Paglia, a cultural hero of mine. Indeed she would be livid at the idea that her thinking is similar to such nonsense as "perfect rhymes are a product of patriarchy." She'd be livid because it's a nonsense argument, not because she sees patriarchy as evil. Paglia championed male contributions, such as constructing cities and creating technological advances that allowed women to leave housework and even childbirth aside, that provided women the freedom to claim equal status with men in society. 

Updated On: 12/11/19 at 08:44 AM

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 10:44am

https://twitter.com/anaismitchell/status/1204781699189673985

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 12:43pm

Sorry to butt in, and a bit off topic, but I would like to give those suffering from the patriarchy some hope.

Starting back about two decades now, women are simply taking over higher education. Don't hold me to the exact statistics, which most would not agree on anyway. But for the last ten years approximately Ten to eleven percent more women than men are enrolling in four year colleges upon graduation from high school. And I believe that this means three million more women than men each year are attending four year colleges.  On top of that, only about sixty percent of the enrolled men get that degree compared to women students.

This is applicable about evenly to whites and blacks. It does not apply to Asians and Hispanics.

Over the course of a decade, this amounts to perhaps 30 million less men getting that bachelor's degree, which is still the first necessary credential for having a successful career in the United States. The media has been very slow in reporting this story. Perhaps many think that it is a good thing for women to run over men in law and medicine. Women in charge may do better at running the world than men. They couldn't do much worse.

Another reason for underreporting this story may be that it has received so little attention politically. There are no special interests behind it and no lobbying funds available. No constituents are complaining.

The Atlantic was one of the first to call attention to this phenomenon with two articles in 2017.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/11/gender-education-gap/546677/ 

And a very recent Washington Post story highlighted the trend.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/the-degrees-of-separation-between-the-genders-in-college-keeps-growing/2019/10/25/8b2e5094-f2ab-11e9-89eb-ec56cd414732_story.html

The problem with this scenario playing out is that it results in a very large number of undereducated young men who are unemployed or underemployed. In the past this has been a very dangerous demographic to democracies. The men are envious and resentful and angry that they have been left behind. They vote for Trump. They are even at risk into turning into Brown Shirts, with a large assortment of guns and other lethal weapons readily available.

But the patriarchy may be on the way out.

 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 1:01pm

I have no problem with Anais blaming the "patriarchy" for wanting perfect rhymes -- as long as we can blame her for writing a really sh*tty musical!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 9:05pm

^^^ I have three different recordings of that "sh***y" musical, so I trust it's obvious I don't agree. Instead, I think the lesson here is that writers don't necessarily make cogent critics.

[A Director]

Posted: 12/11/19 at 10:27pm

Lyrics by Ira and Music by Kurt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPLkWUKY9T8