Why did Wicked keep “above the title” billing for so long?

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 9:58am

I recently learned that Idina Menzel and Kristin Chenoweth were both billed above the title for Wicked, which is shocking for various reasons, but is explained in this TikTok video. Basically it’s unheard of for star vehicle shows to outlast their star performers being in the show. 

My main question is, why did they keep the above the title billing post Idina and Kristin? I searched through countless pairs of actresses who played the witches and the first one that came below the title wasn’t until 2009 with Erin Mackey and Dee Roscioli. Why did they wait five+ years to move the stars below the title and was there any pushback against this at the time? Its just fascinating that so many “unknown” performers, at least at the time, were all above the title. Like Annaleigh Ashford, Kate Reinders, Shoshana Bean, etc…

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 10:02am

This may be completely wrong, but could it have anything to do with how well known/established the performers are before they joined the company? 

[BwayLB]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 10:25am

I recall seeing Eden and Megan name on my Playbill

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 10:52am

Call_me_jorge said: " Basically it’s unheard of for star vehicle shows to outlast their star performers being in the show."

Huh? You've got to be joking. 

My main question is, why did they keep the above the title billing post Idina and Kristin? I searched through countless pairs of actresses who played the witches and the first one that came below the title wasn’t until 2009 with Erin Mackey and Dee Roscioli. Why did they wait five+ years to move the stars below the title and was there any pushback against this at the time? Its just fascinating that so many “unknown” performers, at least at the time, were all above the title. Like Annaleigh Ashford, Kate Reinders, Shoshana Bean, etc…"

First of all, it is contractual. Secondly, it is marketing. You have to remember that the overwhelming majority of ticket buyers for Wicked have no idea who anyone is unless they are a celebrity. So elevating the name makes it feel like they are seeing someone special. The only downside is that they would then be refunding for understudies but (again because of the nature of the audience) it is unimaginable that any significant number of Wicked ticket buyers are aware of this convention or would disappoint the children. I suppose that after some number of years they realized that the star of Wicked was the title. 

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 10:54am

Why would Kristin and Idina being above the title be shocking? They were the selling points when Wicked first opened, so naturally the producers wanted to highlight them (I'm actually slightly surprised they didn't put Joel Grey above the title as well, although it should also be noted that this was back when they were making far less changes to Tony eligibility and instead basing it on billing (hence Grey being considered leading for Amos in Chicago a handful of years earlier), so to ensure Kristin and Idina were leading they were above the title and to ensure Grey was featured he was below).

As for the replacements, it's a little surprising it took them so long, but some of those names had at least a bit of a following at the time (Reinders had just done the Gypsy revival, Stephanie J. Block had done a few shows where she had gotten quite a bit of acclaim, etc.). So I can sort of understand still highlighting them above the title.

[Hairspray0901]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 11:28am

This doesn’t answer the question but I specifically remember “back in the day” the cult following many of the wicked ladies had, despite having few credits to their name at the time. Shoshana and Megan were huge in the Wicked fandom, especially as a pair. I think it mostly had to do with Wicked recycling the same handful of ladies in the role - from tour, to broadway, to LA, to Chicago, England, then back again. I don’t think they do that as much anymore (the past decade seems to say they don’t) but I could be wrong. 

Updated On: 1/6/23 at 11:28 AM

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 11:40am

HogansHero said: "Call_me_jorge said: "Basically it’s unheard of for star vehicle shows to outlast their star performers being in the show."

Huh? You've got to be joking.”

Is there another show that had above the title billing that has lasted longer than Wicked? Or ended up making the show the star? I don’t recall any.

I find that Kristin and Idina being above the title, at that point in their careers, shocking because I connect the usage of it with bigger stars like Jackman, Midler, or Metcalf. I would’ve thought the selling point of Wicked was the attachment of the Wizard of Oz story, not the performers.

Updated On: 1/6/23 at 11:40 AM

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 12:20pm

Call_me_jorge said: "I there another show that had above the title billing that has lasted longer than Wicked? Or ended up making the show the star? I don’t recall any.

I find that Kristin and Idina being above the title, at that point in their careers, shocking because I connect the usage of it with bigger stars like Jackman, Midler, or Metcalf. I would’ve thought the selling point of Wicked was the attachment of the Wizard of Oz story, not the performers."

You're also looking back at it with the full history of what's happened in the 20 years since it opened. The early reports and reviews from the out of town tryout were mixed. This was Stephen Schwartz's first new Broadway score since Rags flopped in 1986, so a good 17 year absence from Broadway. The trend of retelling stories from the antagonist's point of view hadn't really taken off yet. The Rent-heads were still very much in full force and Idina still commanded a large following amongst them. Chenoweth was still considered a pretty hot commodity off of her Tony win for Charlie Brown.

All in all, Wicked was not the sure thing people now assume it was at that time and a huge gamble for those involved. They did everything they could to highlight as many aspects as they could to make it feel like an "event."

[jpbran]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 12:35pm

Is there another show that had above the title billing that has lasted longer than Wicked? Or ended up making the show the star? I don’t recall any.

Hello Dolly! would like to have a word.

The first part of your question is difficult as there are only 4 shows that have ever lasted longer than Wicked, and none were above-the-title kinda shows. Dolly tho was certainly attached to Carol Channing for a long time, but the movie, the color-blind revival with Pearl Bailey, and the Midler revival definitely got out from under Channing’s shadow to varying degrees. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 1:43pm

Is Chicago still doing above-the-title billing? Last I saw they were continuing to have complete unknowns billed that way (celebrity stunt casting aside).

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 2:09pm

jpbran said: "Is there another show that had above the title billing that has lasted longer than Wicked? Or ended up making the show the star? I don’t recall any.

Hello Dolly! would like to have a word.

The first part of your question is difficult as there are only 4 shows that have ever lasted longer than Wicked, and none were above-the-title kinda shows. Dolly tho was certainly attached to Carol Channing for a long time, but the movie, the color-blind revival with Pearl Bailey, and the Midler revival definitely got out from under Channing’s shadow to varying degrees."

I think i misused my words. I of course know many people came after Carol Channing in Hello, Dolly, but the difference between the two is that Dolly was a star vehicle that was still a Star vehicle for other performers after Channing, the show is still not the star. People weren’t going to see Hello, Dolly starring Bette Midler they were going to see Bette Midler starring in Hello, Dolly! Where as, wicked started as a star vehicle, but has since become the star itself. People are seeing Wicked starring so and so actress.

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 2:20pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Is Chicago still doing above-the-title billing? Last I saw they were continuing to have complete unknowns billed that way (celebrity stunt casting aside)."

The CHICAGO has never had above-the-title billing, not even when it first opened.  When there is star casting of any kind, it is done via a hanging banner on the marquee and window card outside the theatre.  

[Jarethan]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 2:25pm

I don’t think either of them were ‘STARS’ before Wicked, although more people in the audience knew who Chenoweth was because of all her TV appearances.  Wicked made them stars.  Re above the title, maybe the producers anticipated that they would be stars because of Wicked.  Who knows?

[JBradshaw]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 5:14pm

i forget it at the Richard Rodgers but when “Chicago” was at the Shubert the big sign by the front door had over the title billing (I was in the rush line once and they were covering over Vicki Lewis’ name with Deidre Goodwin’s)

all my programs have over the title billing - one I have has multi names with or between the names so they didn’t have to reprint new things quickly. I’ve never seen it on windowcards though  

BrodyFosse123 said: "The Distinctive Baritone said: "Is Chicago still doing above-the-title billing? Last I saw they were continuing to have complete unknowns billed that way (celebrity stunt casting aside)."

The CHICAGO has never had above-the-title billing, not even when it first opened. When there is star casting of any kind, it is done via a hanging banner on the marquee and window card outside the theatre. "

 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 5:47pm

The original title page for the Chicago revival doesn’t show anyone above the title, but that may be different for signage on the theatre. Title page in the playbill

Updated On: 1/6/23 at 05:47 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 7:28pm

I saw the original cast of the Chicago revival and passed by the theatre many times after that, and Roxie, Velma, Billy, and Amos were always above the title. Of course this was over twenty-five years ago so maybe I’m wrong, but I remember finding it odd once Reinking, Neuwirth, Naughtin, and Grey left.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 8:05pm

Call_me_jorge said: "Is there another show that had above the title billing that has lasted longer than Wicked? Or ended up making the show the star? I don’t recall any."

Two things. 

1. That was not what your first post on this topic asserted. You are now talking about shows running longer than Wicked, but what you said (to which I responded) was: "Basically it’s unheard of for star vehicle shows to outlast their star performers being in the show." I can't fathom what running longer than Wicked has to do with this but manifestly there are lots of shows that have long runs after the OBC star leaves the show. It is inconceivable to me that you don't know this. Why would anyone care if long-running shows like Dolly (Fiddler also comes quickly to mind) closed sooner than Wicked. They were long runs in which a show did not wait for building foundation to collapse before closing.

2. For whatever reason, you and just about everyone else ignored the other part of the response I gave you. All of this chatter is fine, but the bottom line is, this decision is NOT driven by any of that. As I said, it is a function of contracts and marketing. 
 

 

[Tag]

Posted: 1/6/23 at 8:14pm

It probably comes down to good agents, at least for those first few sets of Wicked pairs.

Also I'd argue that Rosie O'Donnell made Kristin a star years before Wicked came along.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 1/8/23 at 1:41pm

jpbran said: "Where as, wicked started as a star vehicle, but has since become the star itself. People are seeing Wicked starring so and so actress."

"Wicked" did not start as a "star vehicle".

 

[east side story]

Posted: 1/8/23 at 2:33pm

There were negotiations regarding the placement of the names re: Menzel and Chenoweth on the original artwork.  Kristin’s team allegedly wanted her name first, going left to right.  She was a Tony winner and deserved it.  Idina’s team okayed the decision by having their client’s name on the right but ever so slightly higher than Chenoweth.  Honestly after those two left the show became the star.