Please Correct Me If I'm Wrong...

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 8:49am

But when I was younger, I couldn't get things because I didn't have the money and I wasn't old enough to get a job yet. So I had to wait. And I was perfectly fine, and survived without those things that I thought I had to have. Then I got older, and got jobs, and then I was able to save money to get things I want. I waited. Because while there are things that people are entitled to, there are things that are more special, and should be enjoyed when you can experience the full thing the way they're meant to be experienced. It wasn't just handed to me. This is how I feel about people who say they're entitled to theater, so bootlegs and filming performances are okay. If you can't afford something, you don't steal it, or ask someone else to steal it for you. I think the digital age has ruined theater. In my opinion, it's meant to be experienced in person. If you can't experience it, you WAIT. I'm sorry, but I don't think that sounds wrong of me to say. There are plenty of shows I've missed, that I've wanted to see but haven't been able to because I couldn't afford it. I have not seen every single show I've wanted to see. I have never just waltzed up to a box office and asked for a premium ticket whenever I wanted. I have never rarely sat in the orchestra unless I moved there during intermission because I happen to spot an empty seat from the back of the mezzanine. When you were a kid, didn't you ask for special things on holidays, on your birthday? That's what I would ask for on my birthday-on holidays. Ways to get tickets. Because theater is not a right. It's a luxury. And someone shouldn't be able to access something so special for free while someone else works so hard for the same thing. I don't care if that sounds classist,  because it's not. You don't automatically get something because of your age or location. Yes, the ticket prices are high, but there's rush. There are discounts. You don't get something for free! It just takes away how special theater in person is. And if we just experience it from our home, a couch, or whatever, it's so much less special. I assure you, I was fine waiting, and I'm positive others will be too. Please, please respect actors when shows come back and realize if you film, it will be more difficult for them to get back the money the shows lost during the pandemic. 

Edit: I know this reeks of "you kids get off my lawn!", or "when I was your age" but I'm actually younger than 30 years old. I know how to respect people, earn things and when I can't get something, I don't work around it and ask people to get it for me, I maybe like...don't get it? And have to deal with that? And I'm fine. And people who don't see shows or get bootlegs will be fine too. 

Updated On: 4/7/21 at 08:49 AM

[thedrybandit]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 9:19am

Ok

[unclevictor]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 9:31am

Say what?

[Owen22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 10:35am

I will correct you. You are wrong.

[justoldbill]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 10:43am

Sometimes the need to just express one's self can be overwhelming.  I am seventy, and when my father died in my childhood,  Mother gathered the children together and said, basically, that there was no money around for the luxuries of life- what we wanted, we had to work for.  I began my consumer-life  using my paper route money for theatre tickets.  Of course, then, you could see a decent road show production for about $3.00 and the balcony was just fine.  So I get it.  Getting the things you want in life is fine, but there's an edge in getting them on your own steam.  You've EARNED it- and that's one of life's better messages.

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 10:44am

hearthemsing22 said: "I have never rarely sat in the orchestra unless I moved there during intermission because I happen to spot an empty seat from the back of the mezzanine."

Speaking of entitlement...

 

[Fosse76]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 11:06am

hearthemsing22 said: "Please, please respect actors when shows come back and realize if you film, it will be more difficult for them to get back the money the shows lost during the pandemic."

I'd argue most people trading/buying bootlegs are fans who see shows all the time, or are fans who wouldn't ever see a show live (for whatever reason), so the "lost" money was never there in the first place.

Even if you can argue that people watching bootlegs don't see the show because they bought a bootleg instead, that population is so small it has no discernible impact on the box office.

[JennH]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 11:12am

I'm only responding to the "right" v "luxury" statement. No one....NO ONE...is saying it should be a human right. At least my personal sphere isn't saying this. But you're 100% wrong on it being a luxury, because it shouldn't be. It absolutely does need to be more accessible to the masses. There is a balance and compromise to be had here. Art is the emulation of the human condition (good art is anyway), and it's a straight up fact that a well functioning society needs art of all kinds to survive. History shows us this constantly. Without it, civilization is dead and the US has created a system where most art is financially inaccessible to most of the population. You CAN make it accessible without just giving it away, but the US is nation where profit is the only thing that matters and it prices out too many people who would likely love to take part in the arts in some form, but can't. 

[justoldbill]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 11:21am

Is there NO point in trying to point out the use of the word "luxury" by a working widow of the 1960's?  Honest, Louise!

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 11:42am

bwayphreak234 said: "hearthemsing22 said: "I have never rarely sat in the orchestra unless I moved there during intermission because I happen to spot an empty seat from the back of the mezzanine."

Speaking of entitlement...

"

How on earth is that entitlement? I normally paid less than $100 for any ticket for any show I saw, because I use rush, lottery, or discounts. The moving is because I ask an usher and they let me. I don't think I"m entitled to it and I certainly don't act like it. Sit down. 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 12:22pm

BROADWAY is a luxury - theater isn't.  And that being said, there are LOTS of theater to be had a reasonable price.

 

Entitlement: feeling that because a seat is "empty" you are entitled to move into it.

[joevitus]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 12:25pm

justoldbill said: "Sometimes the need to just express one's self can be overwhelming. I am seventy, and when my father died in my childhood, Mother gathered the children together and said, basically, that there was no money around for the luxuries of life- what we wanted, we had to work for. I began my consumer-life using my paper route money for theatre tickets. Of course, then, you could see a decent road show production for about $3.00 andthe balcony was just fine. So I get it. Getting the things you want in life is fine, but there's an edge in getting them on your own steam. You've EARNED it- and that's one of life's better messages."

This was lovely, and thanks for sharing.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 12:30pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL-3a0SeESo&ab_channel=SarahZ

I admit to rolling my eyes a bit at the "this is exclusionary," "it needs to be accessible,"  "theater is a right," arguments. Theater needs to be accessible to everyone who can purchase a ticket (that is, not being discriminatory in the accessibility of the buildings, not being hostile to newer/less frequent theatergoers, having special performances for theatergoers with sensory issues, etc.) But it's up to the creators how much access they want to give to their work outside of the actual stage production (e.g. published scripts, cast albums, livestreamed performances, pro-shots, etc.) Deciding for yourself that you need to see the full performance of every actress who has ever played Elphaba is entitlement.

[joevitus]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 12:30pm

justoldbill said: "Is there NO point in trying to point out the use of the word "luxury" by a working widow of the 1960's? Honest, Louise!"

I suspect the comment was in response to the OP, not in response to your own comment. But to both you and the OP, I say: there will those who will be offended/snarky because the internet, but I think luxury is absolutely the right word. We may think luxury means diamonds and limos, but it doesn't. It means everything in life that you don't absolutely need to physically survive. T.v. is a luxury. Music is a luxury. Hell yes, theater is a luxury. Even very inexpensive theater--even FREE theater (because you need the luxury of time to attend) is a luxury. You can survive without it. How many of us want to, though? It's a very pleasurable luxury.

[¿Macavity?]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 12:48pm

I respectfully disagree; the issue is more with the cost and accessibility of theatre.

Broadway is absurdly expensive, even with discounts. Getting to the city is expensive, staying there is expensive, food is expensive. And then throw even a "cheap" ticket on top of that. The most popular shows likely won't even have discounted seats, so bootlegs are the only option for some people.

That said, I can't condone the illegal filming of theatre, nor the scummy business of then SELLING the poor quality recordings. Putting it lightly: it's disrespectful. However abysmal the act of recording is, many recordings are at least posted online for free, and I don't think it's going to stop. So why condemn some unfortunate person who can't afford to get to the city? Obviously the demand for bootlegs will never die out.

We can only hope that they do some good and grow the community and maybe help us learn and reflect on past productions. Those old bootleg clips of the original productions of Follies are now treasures that wouldn't otherwise exist.

I do get where you're coming from though. I can rarely attend high-end theatre (a geographic and financial matter) and it makes it all the more special when I can. I personally don't touch newer bootlegs, out of personal preference to wait for "the real thing" and to ensure I experience the work as intended. I have watched them in the past, but I stopped because it often led to me drawing conclusions about shows that were ultimately unfair. One cannot accurately get the feel of a show based on a bootleg and that's the hitch that keeps live theatre safe.

It's an interesting topic to think about, and I hope some of these more helpful responses will assist your meditation on the subject.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 1:15pm

Owen22 said: "I will correct you. You are wrong."

Haha. Correct.

Ps: Paragraphs, spacing and rambling are real things. You might want to look into them. 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 1:28pm

VintageSnarker said: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL-3a0SeESo&ab_channel=SarahZ

I admit to rolling my eyes a bit at the "this is exclusionary," "it needs to be accessible," "theater is a right," arguments. Theater needs to be accessible to everyone who can purchase a ticket (that is, not being discriminatory in the accessibility of the buildings, not being hostile to newer/less frequent theatergoers, having special performances for theatergoers with sensory issues, etc.) But it's up to the creators how much access they want to give to their work outside of the actual stage production (e.g. published scripts, cast albums, livestreamed performances, pro-shots, etc.) Deciding for yourself that you need to see the full performance of every actress who has ever played Elphaba is entitlement."

I'm so sorry.  This is a MUCH better way of phrasing what I was trying to say. Thank you!!! 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 1:31pm

dramamama611 said: "BROADWAY is a luxury - theater isn't. And that being said, there are LOTS of theater to be had a reasonable price.



Entitlement: feeling that because a seat is "empty" you are entitled to move into it."

Please read what I wrote---I never said I felt entitled to it!! I said I saw it was empty, and WOULD ASK IF I COULD MOVE. If a seat is empty throughout the first act and into intermission, by the end of intermission, I would ASK an usher if It WAS OKAY that I move there. I never, ever would think I'm entitled to that seat!! For all I know that person is running late or something! But I would ask. I would never go there without express permission. If they say no, I'm back in my regular seat. Not a problem. Never a problem. I worked as an usher-I know how it goes. But please for God sakes give me the curtesy of reading my previous comments because I always ask. I never assume I'm entitled to that empty seat. 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 1:37pm

So...nothing is sacred anymore? Nothing deserves to be respected and appreciated in the way it was intended to be seen, because God forbid someone live far from theater and they just MUST see a bootleg of a show, or the world will collapse? I'm completely aware of the ticket prices, the costs for a family to see a show, the other factors that go into a family visiting New York or visiting the West End to see a show. It's NOT cheap. That does NOT entitle younger people to demand theater because otherwise they can't access it. There are plenty of ways to discover where theater started first-movies, legally filmed pro-shots. Where do you think actors got inspired? Cast recordings. Holiday performances (Thanksgiving Day Parade, for one) Tony Awards performances (that's why Beetlejuice saw such a bump in ticket sales-because of that performance-not because of a bootleg). I promise once you work for something and earn money to see something, it means so much more because you get to say I worked hard. I earned this. Broadway isn't the be all end all of theater. Support local theaters. If it's not the best program in the world-talk to people about shows you'd like to see there. MTI is a fantastic resource for what shows are available. Please don't give me the whole " but Broadway is the only way to discover theater!" Nah. Regional productions. School productions. WHICH NEED TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED far more than they are. Do we seriously live in a society that believes it's better to discover things for free when other people have to work for it, than waiting? That reeks of entitlement to me. 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 2:32pm

Updated On: 4/7/21 at 02:32 PM

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 2:45pm

Not to be rude or anything, but you are seeming like you don’t want to be proven wrong, despite asking so in your title. I’m sorry, but I just don’t understand how the side of “if you can’t pay for it you shouldn’t be able to see it.” isn’t just as entitled. Not everyone can afford to travel halfway across the world to stay in one of the most expensive cities to go see a play or musical. I agree with the person who said Broadway is Luxury, I don’t think Broadway shows are a luxury. Broadway itself is. The process of going to Broadway and sitting in a theatre is a luxury. Everyone should have the right to see whatever art where ever they want.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 2:52pm

Like, what are you trying to go for with this thread, besides instigate? There hasn’t been much bootleg discussion on this board in a while... seems kind of off putting tbh

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 3:18pm

I was just expressing a thought I had. That when I was young, I cared more about being outside, doing things other than encouraging people to illegally record shows. Now I'm bad at getting outside more often. I really should. But I also believe that it's more important to work for things you want than to just have them handed to you. People can be exposed to shows, theater, art without seeing illegal bootlegs. Respect for the actors, y'know? The people who worked so hard to put on the show, only to have others disrespect them by illegally filming them...

 

RE: Cost...okay, so how do you lower ticket prices and still pay your actors, crew, box office staff, everyone else involved in the production? 

I'm sorry, but do people think they have to see every show on Broadway? That every show they miss is something they're entitled to see via bootleg? That tours, regional productions aren't a thing? That patience is something that doesn't apply here, so they just get recordings whenever they want??

 

I'm sorry, but people who think because of their location that they deserve a bootleg is far more of an act of entitlement than anything I've said. 

[rkade21]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 3:58pm

Don’t agree at all. I will never film a show myself, but I will and have watched bootlegs of shows/casts I cannot see live. Lord know how much I’ve spent on tickets since moving to NYC in 2017, I sleep perfectly sound at night having watched bootlegs and do not agree at all with the industry line that bootlegs (or proshots) reduce the number of people willing to pay for live theater. As another already said, those people who love theater enough to watch a ****ty cell camera bootleg on YouTube are absolutely people who are going to live theater as their location/budget allows. Solving the money and union issue with professional streaming would only serve to increase broader interest and the audience of live theater patrons, in my opinion.

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 4/7/21 at 4:26pm

rkade21 said: "Don’t agree at all. I will never film a show myself, but I will and have watched bootlegs of shows/casts I cannot see live. Lord know how much I’ve spent on tickets since moving to NYC in 2017, I sleep perfectly sound at night having watched bootlegs and do not agree at all with the industry line that bootlegs (or proshots) reduce the number of people willing to pay for live theater. As another already said, those people who love theater enough to watch a ****ty cell camera bootleg on YouTube are absolutely people who are going to live theater as their location/budget allows. Solving the money and union issue with professional streaming would only serve to increase broader interest and the audience of live theater patrons, in my opinion."

Just taking a relatively recent example:

Do you think people who saw a bootleg of Cameron Dallas in Mean Girls considered getting tickets if they thought he was horrible? Do you think that bootleg hurt the show a bit? Do you think someone who questioned a casting decision is more likely to give the actor a chance if they don't see a bootleg, or if they see one? That's why B-Roll footage exists. It gives people a chance to see if they want to see the show. Not "you get to see the show for free and then you decide if you want to spend the money". No.