The Great "Bright" Way- Page 5

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 12:02am

John Adams said: "CT2NYC said: "If you Google "Great White Way," you'll find that, within the last week,the nickname has been used in at least 20 different articles, all unrelated to this change.It might not be used everyday conversation, but it is being used regularly in the press."

I did that. Results here. (I also selected the "News" tab to insure I would get articles, rather than a potpourri of links to pages from greatwhiteway.com). I didn't get the same results you posted about. 3 /10 hits that were returned on the first page were about Whoopi, Joy Behar and The View. I thought it was interesting that all the remaining hits used the term Great White Way followed by the phrase "will remain dark.." (almost identically, word for word).

I also did the same thing using "Broadway" as the search criterion (selecting "News" tab, also). Results here. I got a much more diverse set of hits, only one of which also used the term "dark". Instead they wrote, "shuttered", "cancelled", "shutdown" (remaining returned hits had nothing to do with Broadway's shutdown).

CT2NYC said: "I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would be so vehemently opposed to this."

I don't know if you were including me as being "vehemently opposed", but I will say this: I will never refer to Broadway as "The Great Bright Way".

But that's not vehement opposition. I've never referred to Broadway as "The Great White Way", either. (Well, except for 6 shows a week, in regional theater, while I was singin' in the rain... but I was only contracted for 6 months and I promise I've never used the phrase again, after that.)"

7 on page one + 4 on page two + 7 on page three + 2 on page four = 20. 

I was talking about GavestonPS when I said "vehemently opposed."

Updated On: 7/1/20 at 12:02 AM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 12:13am

THIS F*CKING BOARD! JESUS CHRIST!

ETA and whatever happened to the quaint custom of PMing us to tell us why our posts are deleted? That was short-lived!

Your response violated no rules, so you did nothing wrong. I totally agree with THIS response as well even though it will be deleted. 

Updated On: 7/1/20 at 12:13 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 12:14am

CT2NYC said: "
I was talking about GavestonPS when I said "vehemently opposed.""

GavestonPS is only "vehemently opposed" to willful stupidity. I think there's a principle in this thread worth discussing--if ONLY that were possible--but it's never been about any one, archaic phrase.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 12:18am

Sutton Ross said: "Your response violated no rules, so you did nothing wrong. I totally agree with THIS response as well even though it will be deleted."

Now that I think of it, Sutton, I believe I may have referred to certain posters as unwelcome pests (only in harsher words), so I probably have to take the blame this time.

(Which doesn't explain why a different post defending the intelligence of Ginger Rogers with a real-world, first-hand example was deleted. But never mind...)

[A Director]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 2:17am

PLEASE. STOP.

I am not virtue shaming. I have said things without thinking about the words I have used. Things change quickly and, at times. it's hard to keep up.  Here are some observations.

The open letter from BIPOC, We See White American Theatre made me winch, at first. After reading it again, I thought I should shut up and listen.  I'm white and it was time learn what I know little about. When people on this Board demand the authors provide evidence or solutions, I point out the letter was a first step.  It was a wake-up call.  There have been times when white people are called out their first response is to find a BIPOC person who disagrees with those who called out. I was not surprised when someone posted Jeremy O. Harris's comments about the letter.

When a black playwright posts a video about working at Second Stage, it's time to shut up and listen.  It is not a good idea to tell an old story about what Ethel Merman said to Irving Berlin.

When this playwright says Book of Mormon is racist, it's time to shut up and listen.  You may not agree, but take the time to do a little research to find out if other black people agree.

I know the origin of The Great White Way.  Over the years, the origin story has been forgotten.  It is not a good idea to play Theatre History Snob and mock people who don't know it.  The only I use the the phrase is to point out Broadway's lack of diversity.  Changing it to The Great Bright Way is superficial.  It makes you feel good for a moment or two, but you are avoiding the hard and painful work of real change.

The meaning of some words used by Shakespeare have changed since he used them.  What should directors and actors do?  Should they change these words?  What about words that might create the wrong impression in the audience? He uses niggard and niggardly in Comedy of Errors. Should you change them? Should you included a program note about what they mean?  What about having someone dressed as a scholar pop out from the wings and explain the meaning? It's not a good idea to go all John Simon.

When I read or hear someone ask for a nuanced comment, my first reaction is "I will only listen when you speak or write the way I want."

When I read, "Thank you for your very smart and articulate posts. And, no, I DO NOT MEAN "smart for a Chicano"--I know lots of highly educated Latinos--I mean smart for a new poster I hadn't encountered before." I think, it would have been better to stop after the first sentence. Also, why does this person want to dig himself a hole.

When I read, " (BTW, I was careful in discussing racial categories to specify the time and place. I am well aware that the history of the West and Southwest are quite different. Since I moved to California in 1985, I have both studied and taught Chicano theater, which doesn't make me an insider nor an expert, but Luiz Valdez is among my favorite living playwrights and I am aware of events like the "Zoot Suit riots", "Sleepy Lagoon murders", etc. and so forth.)" I hear, "Some of my best friends are..."  I want to yell, "STOP. DIGGING."

 

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 8:01am

If "The Great White Way" is a phrase that deserves change, shouldn't the phrase "go dark" also be part of the discussion? Both are meant to refer to the lights of Broadway, but both can be construed to refer to skin color/racial bias (rightly or wrongly, apparently more dependent on individual temperament rather than pedantic[?] definition).

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 8:50am

John Adams said: "If "The Great White Way" is a phrase that deserves change, shouldn't the phrase "go dark" also be part of the discussion? Both are meant to refer to the lights of Broadway, but both can be construed to refer to skin color/racial bias (rightly or wrongly, apparently more dependent on individual temperament rather than pedantic[?] definition)."

I don't think so; perhaps others do. The problem with "Great White Way" and other similar expressions (e.g., "I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas" is that they shelter notions of white superiority that are the seeds of systemic racism. There are also symbols such as those I mentioned in my first post that reinforce these notions of good vs. bad associated with white vs. black. The learning process people not of color are (or should be) now undertaking is about understanding how these things affect persons of color. Systemic racism is not about intention but about a toxic mindset. 

[Dollypop]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 10:14am

At the time the phrase became popular, all the marquees were lit with while light bulbs. That's not the case nowadays, where the marquersxare actually large Led screens, so "The Great Bright Way" is appropriate on two levels.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 10:32am

There is also precedent of course for the "bright lights of Broadway" that goes back, at least, to 1923. And "the neon lights are bright on Broadway." But to be clear, I am certainly not advocating for the substitution (I'm not sure anyone is except as a joke) as opposed to retirement of the current expression.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 10:33am

I guess the issue here for me is that, unlike the Legacy Robe, there is no organization that administers the use of “The Great White Way.” It’s not a statue or a tangible thing. It’s a nickname, and one falling out of popular use regardless. I’m just not sure it’s worth expending much mental energy over, particularly when there are more systemic issues affecting Broadway that will require that energy to address.

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 3:31pm

You're all bonkers !

[EDSOSLO858]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 4:26pm

On the heels of yesterday's B'way announcement, shows and theatre groups have started using the hashtag #broadwaywillbeback on their social media platforms (somehow replacing #onlyintermission ?). I've also seen a few make good use of Whoopi's new B'way nickname. I really seem to like it; count me in among the supporters!

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 4:29pm

Yes, I LOVED Moulin Rouge' announcement. It works perfectly with their show. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/1/20 at 8:27pm

A Director said: "PLEASE. STOP...

When I read, "Thank you for your very smart and articulate posts. And, no, I DO NOT MEAN "smart for a Chicano"--I know lots of highly educated Latinos--I mean smart for a new poster I hadn't encountered before." I think, it would have been better to stop after the first sentence. Also, why does this person want to dig himself a hole.

When I read, "(BTW, I was careful in discussing racial categories to specifythe time and place. I am well aware that the history of the West and Southwest are quite different. Since I moved to California in 1985,I have both studied and taught Chicano theater, which doesn't make me an insider nor an expert, but Luiz Valdez is among my favorite living playwrights and I am aware of events like the "Zoot Suit riots", "Sleepy Lagoon murders", etc. and so forth.)" I hear, "Some of my best friends are..." I want to yell, "STOP. DIGGING."

"

Quite a lot of blather from someone telling others to "shut up"!

What you and the other virtue-signalers--and, yes, that's exactly what you are doing--refuse to understand is that some of us have been wrestling with these issues for DECADES. Our thoughts on the subject are neither knee-jerk nor brand-new.

My explanation that I wasn't evaluating boylikethat "as a Chicano" WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF YOUR POST from a few days ago! When I mentioned that a BIPOC was "articulate", you went off, insisting that I meant I was surprised he was articulate because he was black. I said no such thing, I meant no such thing, I never even thought any such thing!

So in this thread, when I was welcoming a thoughtful and articulate newish poster, I tried to be careful to say I wasn't praising him on some special scale based on his racial background. That I got the exact same response FROM YOU as when I didn't make that clear only shows the severe limitations of your reading comprehension skills (and memory).

The other paragraph of mine that you cite had nothing to do with claiming authority on the basis of friends who are Latinos. I lived through Jim Crow and the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s; it wouldn't occur to me to claim "authority" on that basis.

But because I mentioned racial constructions in the Southeastern U.S. of my upbringing, boylikethat quite understandably felt a need to explain that constructions in the Western U.S. were different. I was merely demonstrating to him that I have lived, studied and taught for 30 years in California and am aware that race is constructed differently in parts of the U.S. that were once part of Mexico. Why should he have to continue to explain (to me, at least) conventions I have studied for years?

This is called polite conversation. But you and Hogan and others are as bad as Trump voters. You seem entirely ignorant of the concept of CONTEXT, and can't read a word or a phrase with any awareness of the comment's actual purpose. Instead, you keep a list of politically incorrect thoughts and go bat-**** loco whenever anybody else writes anything that threatens your certainty of your own superiority.

Yes, I think listening is important. But prostrating one's self at the feet of somebody because of his or her color isn't "listening", it's merely a "feel good", self-abasement ritual. Good luck with that. REAL listening occurs only within a conversation in which points of view are refined with input from others! But here that requires reading. Not your strong suit.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 2:37pm

No one gets to decide for others what they find offensive.  I'm caucasian, but I have always believed that "the great white way" was a questionable moniker.  The 1st time I heard the term I was uncomfortable with it. At the time I didn't know its origins but I deduced that it probably had to do with the actual lights of Broadway as opposed to any racist origin. But it still didn't leave me any less comfortable. And decades later I still find it to be an uncomfortable moniker. 

It's a term used by writers when they're waxing poetic in their descriptions of Broadway. It's a meaningless term, so why should it matter that people stop saying it?

And as I said before, "gypsy" is, and always has been, a racist term. So there is no defense for its use.

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 3:01pm

https://twitter.com/DearEvanHansen/status/1278342719576903680?s=20

https://twitter.com/MoulinRougeBway/status/1278019463531638786?s=20

https://twitter.com/wecomefromaway/status/1278023095828111360?s=20

https://twitter.com/MeanGirlsBway/status/1278460275692376064?s=20

https://twitter.com/PhantomBway/status/1278021813881188359?s=20

https://twitter.com/jaggedmusical/status/1278403688621621256?s=20

https://twitter.com/CompanyBway/status/1278353918418989057?s=20

https://twitter.com/NorthCountryBwy/status/1278023774680596481?s=20

https://twitter.com/SixBroadway/status/1278043230370705409?s=20

See how easy that was? As far as I'm concerned, this conversation should be over, but we all know how some people don't know how to shut up.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 3:18pm

Especially you. 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 3:20pm

"CT2NYC said: "By the way, GavestonPS, this post from last night is the reason that you're among the people I've blocked:

"Thank you for your very smart and articulate posts. And, no, I DO NOT MEAN "smart for a Chicano"--I know lots of highly educated Latinos--I mean smart for a new poster I hadn't encountered before."

Seriously? Whodo you think you are? Did you really think this was a compliment? This racist, elitist statement showed me that you're completely out of touch and have nothing of worth to offer to this board. Shameful."

THIS F*CKING BOARD! JESUS CHRIST!

THIS ASSHOLE CALLS ME A RACIST (just because I question the damage done by a racially neutral phrase) and that's allowed to stand. But whatever my response, that was too touchy for the delicate sensibilities here.

ETA and whatever happened to the quaint custom of PMing us to tell us why our posts are deleted? That was short-lived!"

Thank you for not deleting this amazing post. Chef's kiss! 

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 3:28pm

Sutton Ross said: "Especially you."

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 3:31pm

"I blocked you months ago, so I never see your posts" - You

LOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZz

Edited to add that this user said "I am BEGGING YOU TO BLOCK ME"

Pathetic and deeeeply hilarious!

Updated On: 7/2/20 at 03:31 PM

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 4:02pm

Sutton Ross said: ""CT2NYC said: "By the way, GavestonPS, this post from last night is the reason that you're among the people I've blocked:

"Thank you for your very smart and articulate posts. And, no, I DO NOT MEAN "smart for a Chicano"--I know lots of highly educated Latinos--I mean smart for a new poster I hadn't encountered before."

Seriously? Whodo you think you are? Did you really think this was a compliment? This racist, elitist statement showed me that you're completely out of touch and have nothing of worth to offer to this board. Shameful."

THIS F*CKING BOARD! JESUS CHRIST!

THIS ASSHOLE CALLS ME A RACIST (just because I question the damage done by a racially neutral phrase) and that's allowed to stand. But whatever my response, that was too touchy for the delicate sensibilities here.

ETA and whatever happened to the quaint custom of PMing us to tell us why our posts are deleted? That was short-lived!"

Thank you for not deleting this amazing post. Chef's kiss!"

Clearly I unblocked you, so I'm not sure what's so funny about that. It's hard to avoid posts when the BWW iPad app won't let me log in, so I figured I'd rather be able to call you out when I feel like it.

If you can't see why his post was condescending, then you're as clueless as he is. If he had said,"Thank you for your very smart and articulate posts," only an idiot would have thought he was being racist, since boylikethat's post was clearly intelligent and well-written. By clarifying that it wasn't racist, it automatically becomes about race. It's like some cringeworthy thing Larry David would say on Curb Your Enthusiasm, a compliment that starts out OK, but quickly devolves into an insult.

 

Updated On: 7/2/20 at 04:02 PM

[darquegk]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 4:08pm

Broadway will be back, and this time (maybe) Broadway will be black.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 4:18pm

Love that ^

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 8:50pm

CT2NYC said: "If you can't see why his post was condescending, then you're as clueless as he is. If he had said,"Thank you for your very smart and articulate posts,"only an idiot would have thought he was being racist, since boylikethat's post was clearly intelligent and well-written. By clarifying that it wasn't racist, it automatically becomes about race. It's like some cringeworthy thing Larry David would say onCurb Your Enthusiasm,a compliment that starts out OK, but quickly devolves into an insult.

"

I know CT2NYC doesn't read my posts, so somebody please tell him to take it up with A Director. Because CT2's suggested phrase is EXACTLY what I posted about a video message from an African American playwright only to have A Director lose his **** calling me condescending and racist. So, yeah, I felt compelled to qualify my praise for boylikethat's posts, praise I would have offered to any new poster with his abilities.

Any insult is entirely in CT2NYC's imagination. Honi soit qui mal y pense!

***

Also, in response to Fosse76's post (in part): "No one gets to decide for others what they find offensive": OF COURSE NOT! But the issue isn't who dictates what an individual finds offensive, the issue is whether everyone else is required to protect the individual from feeling slighted.

So a bunch of people are using "The Great Bright Way" for the moment. What a bunch of wankers, as our cousins overseas would say! How wonderful that racism has been solved! Meanwhile there was yet another suspicious "suicide by hanging from a tree" in a suburb of Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago; the dead man's name was Robert L. Fuller, he was 24.

Updated On: 7/2/20 at 08:50 PM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/2/20 at 9:25pm

That person is reading all of your posts, just like they read mine. They literally sent me a PM telling me they blocked me and begging me to block them. Their tactic is "Im going to say what I want about you but pretend to not read what you wrote! And TELL you that!"

Because they are 12 years old.

Pay them zero mind, they are not worth your words or thoughts. I enjoy reading them though.