Thank God the Gypsy Robe is now the legacy Robe

[ladypresent]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 10:56am

Now all the Roma people who were up late at night cursing the heavens about the name of the robe can sleep in peace.  Millions of screams have finally been silenced
AEA...you did it. Great job. Kate Shindle's legacy...she stopped the decades long suffering of the Roma people.

[Fosse76]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 10:58am

Get a life.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 10:59am

They should bring Sambo's back, too.

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 10:59am

A little early to be drinking that heavily, no?

[haterobics]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 11:02am

Somebody beat you to starting a snarky thread about this in April... you got to get on top of things if you want to be the first to show you're ignorant around here.

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1108824&page=1

[JayG 2]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 2:05pm

She's no longer a legacy

She'll be leaving us soon

She got the understudy to the rescue bit

Now she's half way to the moon.

(Or whatever the lyric actually is.)

 

You people do realize it's crap like this nonsense that put Trump in office-- and keep the snowflake silliness up and he will be your president again come 2020.

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 2:15pm

Being culturally sensitive put him in office?   Ok.

 

The Roma People DO care. And appreciate.

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 2:57pm

Is it still ok to eat Roma tomatoes?

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:08pm

DramaMama611, thanks for posting that link.

Actually, I think the case can be made that it's the ''culturally insensitive'' who put Trump in office. … Anyway, I'm assuming it was originally called a Gypsy Robe because it honored the dancers who travel, like a Gypsy (or vagabond), from show to show.

But since the Roma people find the term ''Gypsy'' offensive and evokes negative stereotypes, it's an honorable gesture for Equity to respond to that. A bit of history: Reportedly, Europeans derisively called the Romani people ''Gypsies'' because they believed they came from Egypt because of their dark features. They also have been persecuted and enslaved. Roma historians estimate 70% of the Roma people were killed in the Holocaust.

In this country, many Native Americans find ''redskins'' offensive, and I wish the Washington Redskins would change that name, too.

Reacting to ethnic stereotypes and to those who are offended, isn't ''P.C.'' It's being sensitive to living in a more diverse world.

Updated On: 7/14/18 at 03:08 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:09pm

It’s not like any of you will ever be wearing it anyway.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:13pm

 

As Shirley MacLaine once sang, we ALL have got the gypsy in our souls.

Or, at least, we used to.

 

[Kad]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:14pm

Also, Italy’s current government is again targeting the Roma people.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/20/italys-treatment-of-roma-people-reflects-a-centuries-old-prejudice

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:14pm

 

And also Liza.

 

 

[Kitsune]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:16pm

Wayman_Wong said: "DramaMama611, thanks for posting that link.

Actually, I think the case can be made that it's the ''culturally insensitive'' who put Trump in office. … Anyway, I'm assuming it was originally called a Gypsy Robe because it honored the dancers who travel, like a Gypsy (or vagabond), from show to show.

But since the Roma people find the term ''Gypsy'' offensive and evokes negative stereotypes, it's an honorable gesture for Equity to respond to that. A bit of history: Reportedly, Europeans derisively called the Romani people ''Gypsies'' because they believed they came from Egypt because of their dark features. They also have been persecuted and enslaved. Roma historians estimate 70% of the Roma people were killed in the Holocaust.

In this country, many Native Americans find ''redskins'' offensive, and I wish the Washington Redskins would change that name, too.

Reacting to ethnic stereotypes and to those who are offended, isn't ''P.C.'' It's being sensitive to living in a more diverse world."

All of this - thank you for putting it so elegantly!

[geoffreyC]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:25pm

Next: boycott Sondheim and make your demands heard!  We demand purity in all but our real enemies!

[Tag]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:28pm

Is 'Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves' in The Cher Show?  What will Equity do about that :)

[Kad]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:29pm

nothing like changing the name of a tradition to bring out the conservative streak in even liberal white people. Who knew y’all had those red hats in your closets?

Updated On: 7/14/18 at 03:29 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 3:30pm

Tag said: "Is 'Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves' in The Cher Show? What will Equity do about that :)"

 Literally nothing because it’s not in their jurisdiction or power to rewrite material? 

Updated On: 7/14/18 at 03:30 PM

[Steve C.]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 4:07pm

I agree with K again, where does it stop and start and stop??? An historic theater company in Baltimore is the 50 + years old Young Vic(torian) company; performing Gilbert and Sullivan with 1 or 2 productions each year. They are "still trying" to perform "The Mikado" this year. They are being bombarded with Asian/American criticisms and boycotting...In the 2nd act showstopper from "Anything Goes" Evelyn's big song is the "Gypsy In Me"...I just watched a couple of the uncut Carol Burnett shows. In one Chita Rivera dances in a spider web pre-dating "Kiss of the Spider Woman" and speaks of "gypsies" after dancing with 12 chorus "men"....Nancy Wilson is introduced as the "Town Negro" in a skit and calls Eddie Albert "whitey"

Walt Disney even used gypsies as a big plot point in "Babes In Toyland" ...with Annette Funicello!

....and what are they going to call "Gypsy!"..???  "Louise!!" 

Updated On: 7/14/18 at 04:07 PM

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 4:11pm

Funny how people can be so liberal and up for change until it's knocking at their doorstep.

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 4:14pm

Hmmm... I have a feeling some (if not many) are gonna dislike my response to this, but here goes anyways...

I'm not a fan of this change from "Gypsy Robe" to "Legacy Robe". It erases a very loving and respectful term from Theater vocabulary. The intentions are VERY well-meaning, but unintentionally misguided.

First, I understand, empathize and completely support the Roma (Romani? - I'm not 100% sure which is the more respectful/accurate address - I apologize for my ignorance, and hope you understand that my intention is to be respectful) peoples' cause to be disassociated from the term, "gypsy". As stated in their response to Actors' Equity, it is a misnomer. I'm also very pleased that they are moved by the decision, and agree that it is "honorable". I'd also add, "deserved". No people or person should have to endure the kind of slur that the term gypsy casts upon the Roma peoples. I feel like I have a working understanding of how the term was created by Europeans, why the Roma peoples see it as a slur, and how it should never be employed when referring to them. I can certainly pledge that I will never refer to to the Roma peoples as gypsies.

In theater vocabulary, however, it holds a different meaning, with a completely opposite social connotation regarding the people referenced in the theater world. There is absolutely no connection to, or association with the Roma peoples.

The first time I heard the term used in its theatrical sense was in the musical Applause. The character of Eve is taken to a "gypsy" hangout. The character of Howard says, "Gypsy is the name dancers affectionately give themselves as they go camping from show to show." BTW, I italicized the word, "affectionately".

In the theater world, the term "gypsy" was adopted because of only ONE aspect of the word's definition: a member of a group of people who travel from place to place. All of the negative aspects associated with the word's etymology and historical usage were completely ignored. Although I can't be 100% certain, I suspect that there was an attraction to the term due to a sense of mystery, and exoticism. Perhaps that's an example of a predominantly caucasian ignorance of the word's actual history, and more in line with its portrayal in storybooks.

Was the adoption of the term a result of cultural ignorance? Yes.

Is the adoption of the term an example of cultural white-washing? Also, yes.

But was the adoption of the word by the theater community, with its new (albeit uneducated and ignorant) definition a bad thing? Its use in the theater world has no negative connotation whatsoever. It's used with pride, and associated with a strong sense of a very special and unique community.

So here's what I struggle with: Here's a word that I have only known to be affectionate and a source of pride. A word that elevates a unique group of people. A word that (bizarrely, via cultural white-washing and ignorance) has been changed from "bad" to "good". A word that has been (literally) celebrated in the theater community for decades, as well as specifically in the musical Applause. 

Do I want it abolished from our vocabulary, in its context within the theater community? No. Most definitely not.

Do I want to show disrespect to the Roma peoples? Also, No. Most definitely not.

The new title, "Legacy Robe" is grating. The Gypsy Robe is a "legacy" (something that is handed down from generation to generation). To describe what is a legacy using the term "legacy" is odd - it's basically re-naming the robe as the "Legacy Legacy". The Gypsy Robe is a legacy that is passed from gypsy to gypsy.

Although I completely support the Roma peoples in their goal to abolish the word gypsy from being used in its negative connotation, in reference to a people who do not deserve to be slurred, I also mourn the loss of word from the theatrical lexicon, and its very positive connotation.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 4:17pm

You can't CHANGE history but you can stop from continuing what we now know is a mistake.  When you know better, you do better.  

[Steve C.]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 4:19pm

^ very respectfully,  I agree with JA's thoughtful post

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 4:43pm

John Adams said: "In theater vocabulary, however, it holds a different meaning, with a completely opposite social connotation regarding the people referenced in the theater world.There is absolutely no connection to, or association with the Roma peoples.



In the theater world, the term "gypsy" was adopted because of only ONE aspect of the word's definition:a member of a group of people who travel from place to place. All of the negative aspects associated with the word's etymology and historical usagewere completely ignored. Although I can't be 100% certain, I suspect that there was an attraction to the term due to a sense of mystery, and exoticism.Perhaps that's an example of a predominantly caucasian ignorance of the word's actual history, and more in line with its portrayal in storybooks.

Was the adoption of the term a result of cultural ignorance? Yes.

Is the adoption of the term an example of cultural white-washing? Also, yes.

But was the adoption of the word by the theater community, with its new(albeituneducated and ignorant) definitionabadthing? Its use in the theater world has no negative connotation whatsoever. It's used with pride, and associated with a strong sense of a very special and unique community.

So here's what I struggle with: Here's a word that I have only known to be affectionate and a source of pride. A word that elevates a unique group of people. A word that (bizarrely, via cultural white-washing and ignorance) has been changed from "bad" to "good". A word that has been (literally)celebrated in the theater community for decades, as well as specifically in the musicalApplause.

I get what you're saying and I think it's complicated. Basically, has the word evolved enough or been divorced enough from its original connotation to be used in this other context. Even though I see the new use as innocent, the way you do, it's hard to argue that it has. For example, take the words "idiot," "moron," "imbecile," etc. which in the past used to be used as part of a psychological scale evaluating intelligence. I know some people think that it's ableist to still use these words and disability rights advocates argue that they're still harmful. I think that's a reach. But the word "****"? While I also think it's fallen out of fashion enough to join those other words, I personally don't use it because it has been used recently enough with negative connotations that it is still hurtful to people.

As for the other examples like Anything Goes, yeah, that's explicitly about the Roma people. I think sometimes you have to perform that stuff as a reflection of the period in which it was written. But it's a case by case basis. Sometimes the stereotypes or portrayal are so laden with hate that it's too much for modern audiences.

[John Adams]

Posted: 7/14/18 at 5:12pm

VintageSnarker said: "I get what you're saying and I think it's complicated. Basically, has the word evolved enough or been divorced enough from its original connotation to be used in this other context. Even though I see the new use as innocent, the way you do, it's hard to argue that it has. For example, take the words "idiot," "moron," "imbecile," etc. which in the past used to be used as part of a psychological scale evaluating intelligence. I know some people think that it's ableist to still use these words and disability rights advocates argue that they're still harmful. I think that's a reach. But the word "****"? While I also think it's fallen out of fashion enough to join those other words, I personally don't use it because it has been used recently enough with negative connotations that it is still hurtful to people."

Here's what I would propose instead:

As part of the legacy of the Gypsy Robe, I would suggest that for every ceremony, there be a voluntary collection taken by cast members. That collected money would (could) be matched by Actors' Equity, and the entirety of monies be donated to the Roma Peoples Project, as a sign that although the Theater Community has adopted the word in a completely different context, we support their cause to be freed from racial stereotyping or slur.

The word "gypsy" does not belong to the Roma peoples. It's a slur that was thrust upon them. The donations should not be viewed as "purchasing" the word from them, as (quite rightfully) they are a people that does not deserve to be wrongfully associated with, nor take ownership of the slur.

Rather, I would hope that the regular contributions, as an addition to the legacy of the Gypsy Robe, might be seen as a sign that good CAN come from bad, and that (altruistically) the Theater Community completely supports the Roma peoples' cause, and hopes that the Roma peoples can see that when the Theater Community (if not the rest of the world) uses the word "gypsy", it is used with nothing less than affection, pride and kinship. ...and that those affections are extended to the Roma peoples when we use the word.

My hope would be that the Roma peoples understand that the Theater Community knows and appreciates the hurtful history behind the word, and does not use it in our context without remembering them.

Updated On: 7/14/18 at 05:12 PM