Hillary Clinton
Hillary Clinton
#1Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 7:50am
Why won't she just go away, dosen't she realize the very sight of her is offensive, even to millions like myself who voted for her. She only strengthens the GOP with every public appearance. She won't go away.
Stephanatic
#2Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 7:55am
Shut up.
Beyoncé is not an ally. Actions speak louder than words, Mrs. Carter. #Dubai #$$$
#3Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 10:48am
So because other people have an offensively and widely inaccurate perception of her, she's just supposed to accept it and go away. Why don't you take your own advice and shut the F up.
"I shall stay until the wind changes."
Updated On: 9/18/17 at 10:48 AM
#5Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:30am
ChildofEarth said: "Do you say the same things about Gore and Kerry?"
To be fair, neither Kerry or Gore wrote books called "What Happened" 6 months after their lost elections. And they didn't go on book tours blaming others for their losses.
#6Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:37am
ErikJ972 said: "ChildofEarth said: "Do you say the same things about Gore and Kerry?"
To be fair, neither Kerry or Gore wrote books called "What Happened" 6 months after their lost elections. And they didn't go on book tours blaming others for their losses."
Have you read the book? Because if you did, you'd realize that she accepts blame for the loss right off the bat. She outlines very clearly what she did wrong.
"I shall stay until the wind changes."
#7Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:44am
Yes. And I disagree with your analysis. She says she takes the blame but she goes on to point fingers at lots of other people other than herself.
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#8Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:45am
I don't know who's more annoying.
The Hillary haters who insist she must shut up /must go away.
Or the Hillary idolaters who insist she's the only person on earth entitled to be immune from criticism when she does say what she wants to say.
#9Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:47am
ErikJ972 said: "ChildofEarth said: "Do you say the same things about Gore and Kerry?"
To be fair, neither Kerry or Gore wrote books called "What Happened" 6 months after their lost elections. And they didn't go on book tours blaming others for their losses."
Ignore the fact that she has accepted a lion's share of the blame multiple times. Why people say she's blaming others I will never understand. I'm assuming the sheep mentality of Bernie bros and never Hillary people who believe anything someone says about her.
But..we need to know what happened from her perspective. We have only four years to beat this monster and few prospects that are realistic.
#10Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:47am
And I don't think she should shut up. But I wish she would spend more time looking forward instead of looking back.
#11Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 11:54am
ErikJ972 said: "Yes. And I disagree with your analysis. She says she takes the blame but she goes on to point fingers at lots of other people other than herself."
It's because other people share some of the blame. And there are plenty of Hillary supporters who criticized her. Her response to the BS email "scandal" was ill-advised. Trying to run in 2016 with Obama's 2008 campaign strategy was stupid. But it is worth repeating that she didn't exist in a vacuum. The Russian government operated a treacherous campaign to undermine American democracy. Combined with 8-12% of Sanders voters in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan voting for Trump and Comey releasing his October 28th letter, there's plenty of blame to go around and she shouldn't be told to shut up about it.
"I shall stay until the wind changes."
Updated On: 9/18/17 at 11:54 AM
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#12Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 12:25pm
Why do some seem so certain that that 8-12% of Sanders primary voters would have voted for Clinton in November, or would not have voted for Trump, or would have voted at all in November if Sanders had never run against Clinton to begin with?
As I recall, many Clinton supporters insisted that some significant minority of Sanders primary voters were false flaggers; that they were intent on boosting the Republicans' chances of a victory in November because they thought Clinton would be a far more successful candidate for the Dems in November than Sanders would have been.
If that's true (is it?), wouldn't that clearly indicate that some significant portion of those 8-12% of Sanders primary voters might well have never supported Clinton in the general under any circumstances?
If that's not true (and it may well not be!), there is still no reason to be convinced that Sanders's bid for the nomination hurt Hillary Clinton in the general election.
As for Comey, is anyone asking the to my mind obvious question: would it have really helped Hillary Clinton if Comey hadn't announced the investigation into the Weiner laptop, but instead this part of the investigation had leaked out and the media would have had a frenzy with Comey not having weiged in on what was happening while that phase of the investigation was being pursued? Or might it well have hurt her?
My firm belief is that the leaks would have happened and the effect on the Clinton campaign if Comey had not been as candid would have been far more devastating to the Clinton campaign than Comey's having revealed what was happening.
Russian involvement in the election is certainly a concern to most Americans and needs to be fully investigated. But I'm far from convinced that that was the dispositive force in the election's outcome.
Clinton should say whatever she wants to say about the election. About what went wrong.
And I'm glad that she is taking any significant share of responsibility.
But I disagree with much of what she's saying. And I believe that much of what she's saying is not helpful to the Democratic party moving forward.
And I'm not going to pretend otherwise.
Moreover, far more Clinton 2008 primary voters voted for McCain in 2008's general election than Sanders 2016 primary voters voted for Trump in 2008's general election.
If McCain had beaten Obama in 2008, would it have been persuasive for Obama supporters to blame his loss on Clinton's primary voters?
Of course not. It would have been a very ill-advised thing to do politically. And a completely unconvincing one logically.
Big time Hillary supporter Joe Lieberman went to the 2008 RNC and endorsed John McCain for president.
If McCain would have won, would it have been a productive thing for Obama supporters to use Liberman's endorsement to somehow blame that theoretical outcome on the 2008 election on Hillary Clinton's supporters and, by extension, on Clinton herself?
No.
Would it have been a persuasive argument?
No.
And as far as Sanders challenging Clinton's record on corporate support, on Iraq..... well, so did Obama in 2008.
More critically, there is nothing wrong with Democrats challenging each other and providing the party with policy choices.
#13Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 1:00pm
She needed way less than half of the total votes to take Michigan (Total votes Sanders to Trump: 47,915; Trump margin of victory: 10,704), Pennsylvania (Total votes Sanders to Trump: 117,100; Trump margin of victory: 44,292), and Wisconsin (Total votes Sanders to Trump: 51,317; Trump margin of victory: 22,747.) Even if a majority of the voters voting from Sanders to Trump were Republicans in disguise (except in PA, where it is not an open primary state), which is highly unlikely, so-called progressives and moderates were still the ones who voted for the obviously regressive candidate.
As a Hillary to Obama supporter in 2008, had he lost, I would have ABSOLUTELY blamed the sore loser Hillary supporters who voted for McCain. I called it out as irresponsible then, and I still think it's irresponsible. It's worth talking about because so-called liberals keep doing this stupid, self-sabotaging crap! Nader/Bush in 2000. Hillary/McCain in 2008. Sanders/Trump in 2016.
As for Comey's October 28th letter, independent data analysts back me up: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/
"I shall stay until the wind changes."
Updated On: 9/18/17 at 01:00 PM
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#14Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 1:16pm
Not at all sure I'm following your first point, LYLES3637, but I couldn't agree with you more that protest votes are suicidal. I voted for Sanders in the primary, by the way, and voted for and campaigned for Clinton during the general, and had many issues with some friends who could not vote for her in the general (though, in their case, they did so in states that they believed would go strongly for Clinton, and did... but I still had a problem with their decision and I told them so).
I'm not at all sure that those Sanders voters who voted for Trump, as horribly misguided as they were, were what we ordinarily think of as progressives or liberals. No more than I would suggest that those Clinton primary voters who voted for McCain were what we ordinarily think of as center left neoliberals. True, those Sanders voters who voted for Stein were probably all progressives and liberals, but I fear the issue with many - by no means all - was an overconfident certainty - which a great many Americans had - that Clinton was going to win the election. Which doesn't excuse their decision, but still gives it political pespective.
But I also think there's something very much like party-sabotage in some of Clinton's analysis, which is not only divisive and very badly timed but which includes theories that simply fail as convincing interpretations of the election.
Having said that, I would say that much of the rhetoric against her is also highly counterproductive. She certainly should voice her opinions as she sees fit. But that doesn't mean that her opinions are either sacrosanct or persuasive, or that those who challenge them are necessarily disrespecting or stifling her. Though, as I said, some are.
#15Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 1:23pm
^ We definitely agree on that last part. What she writes and says is her own analysis and opinion. I don't even agree with all of it. But I think it's valid and she absolutely has the right to say it and Democrats/liberals should have that conversation.
To me, there is more party-sabotage in trying to shut her up and dismiss her entirely than there is in her speaking out.
"I shall stay until the wind changes."
UncleCharlie
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/26/16
#16Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 2:08pm
South Florida said: "dosen't she realize the very sight of her is offensive."
Apparently not since she keeps using the same face and body every time she goes out in public. Perhaps you should write her a strongly worded letter.
#17Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 3:01pm
What Really Happened in 2016, In 7 Charts.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/18/16305486/what-really-happened-in-2016
#18Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 3:56pm
I also suggest reading this article.
"Hillary Clinton’s “coal gaffe” is a microcosm of her twisted treatment by the media"
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/9/15/16306158/hillary-clinton-hall-of-mirrors
Caption: Every so often there was a rare moment of perfect balance when I soared above him.
#19Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 5:50pm
The original post in this thread... are we expected to gloss over the misogyny? That the woman who got closer to the presidency than any woman in history needs to "go away"? What about the old white man Democrat-for-a-day who couldn't beat her in the primaries? Where is his go away thread?
Oh, segne deine Herzen
#20Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 6:09pm
Stop it Frankie I'm not a misogynist. I think at this point Hillary and Nancy are bad for the brand because many Independents are repulsed by them, maybe because they're women, but also because they're the same old ineffective losers that along with Debbie Wasserman Schultz, have dragged this party down. That they all happen to be women is not misogyny just a fact.
Stephanatic
#21Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 6:12pm
As usual the German has contributed the best comments to this thread. She lost to Donald Trump and got over half of the white woman vote after he was caught on tape. Yet, people still think that there wasn't an overall Clinton dislike that extended into Independent ranks. No, it was the Bernie hard cores. Give me a break.
Stephanatic
#22Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 7:05pm
Why do we blame Sanders voters for Trump winning when it was Clinton voters who elected an unelectable candidate during the primaries?
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
#23Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 7:25pm
qolbinau said: "Why do we blame Sanders voters for Trump winning when it was Clinton voters who elected an unelectable candidate during the primaries?
Well, she was very much electable to start with. Got several million more votes than the moron in the White House, in fact.
#24Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 7:28pm
>Why do we blame Sanders voters for Trump winning when it was Clinton voters who elected an unelectable candidate during the primaries?
Because the margin of Sanders to Trump voters is what got him elected. The idea of going from Sanders to Trump is idiotic on ideology alone. They did not give two ****s about Bernie's platform. The "unelectable candidate" walked away with 3 million more votes.
#25Hillary Clinton
Posted: 9/18/17 at 7:34pm
I know a bunch of white women who voted for Trump, friends and family, and it has been a strain on relationships. All of them say they would have considered Bernie. Isn't it time we ask ourselves that even if someone is a genius, has all the credentials to be the best we've ever had, but is unliked because of whatever, let's call it familiarity, or inevitability, or need to change. She spoke on NPR about never running again but speaking out. I have no problem with that I hope she follows the youth. I'm glad she acknowledged the things she did wrong (especially Wall Street speeches). It's weird and it still hurts, and remains unbelievable. I don't think the old man is the savior but I do think he gets where the future lies, and I firmly believe that the health care issue is where all the argument will lay. Voter suppression that is so key.
Stephanatic
