Thoughts on LEOPOLDSTADT

[Dollypop]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 10:37am

I caught yesterday's matinee and wanted to really like it and am still processing the play.

With the exception of THE REAL THING, I've never connected with Stppard's writing. I've always felt as though I've walked into the middle of a conversation and I never catch up with things. This was true with LEOPOLSTADT.

Stoppard has a very powerful story to tell and has some intriguing characters on stage but I never felt drawn into to the play. The last scene is exceptionally touching but everything prior to that didn't fully engage me. It didn't help that there was such a large number of characters on stage and the lighting was fairly dim and blue-ish. I can't blame the cast. They all do admiral work but I felt I was watching the play from a distance .

Updated On: 3/2/23 at 10:37 AM

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 11:01am

There are some more general thoughts in this thread: https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1154450#5381667

Though on the whole I agree with you.  I haven't seen any other Stoppard plays but it did feel like he threw you into the middle of the action quite a bit, not even an easing in to figure out who the characters are.  I feel like I spent a good chunk of the first scene just trying to figure out which person was the Christian one and I was wrong for a while.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 11:17am

chrishuyen said: "There are some more general thoughts in this thread:https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1154450#5381667

Though on the whole I agree with you. I haven't seen any other Stoppard plays but it did feel like he threw you into the middle of the action quite a bit, not even an easing in to figure out who the characters are. I feel like I spent a good chunk of the first scene just trying to figure out which person was the Christian one and I was wrong for a while."

Exactly!

[pethian]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 1:17pm

chrishuyen said: " I feel like I spent a good chunk of the first scene just trying to figure out which person was the Christian one and I was wrong for a while."

 

Are you saying that's a criticism? Because one of the major points of that first masterful scene is how assimilated the Jews of Vienna were. Not being able to distinguish who's Jewish and who is not is to the point!

 

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 1:29pm

pethian said: "chrishuyen said: " I feel like I spent a good chunk of the first scene just trying to figure out which person was the Christian one and I was wrong for a while."

Are you saying that's a criticism? Because one of the major points of that first masterful scene is how assimilated the Jews of Vienna were. Not being able to distinguish who's Jewish and who is not is to the point!"

Ah, I understood this to be a bug, not a feature, especially since they seemed to be debating the advantages of establishing a Jewish state in Israel.  But a lot of this overall just left me feeling at sea with the characters and their relationships to each other, and just when I felt like I was starting to grasp who people were, we'd get a whole new set of characters again.  So I can't say it was an enjoyable experience for me in that way.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 2:16pm

pethian said: "chrishuyen said: " I feel like I spent a good chunk of the first scene just trying to figure out which person was the Christian one and I was wrong for a while."



Are you saying that's a criticism? Because one of the major points of that first masterful scene is how assimilated the Jews of Vienna were. Not being able to distinguish who's Jewish and who is not is to the point!

It's not what's going on in that scene that's the issue for me but, rather, its presentation. Maybe it requires a better grasp of history than I have or the style of writing. I don't know.

 

[Wee Thomas2]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 3:15pm

This was my third Stoppard play (Real Thing and Rock 'n' Roll) and was the first one that didn't feel to me like I had walked into a conversation that I didn't understand.


Being a somewhat assimilated Jew myself probably helped me relate to this show.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 3:49pm

I agree with Dollypop that LEOPOLDSTADT kept me at arm's length emotionally for most of the show. But I would say that's been true for nearly all of Stoppard's work. Only 2 of his shows have burst through to something ineffably moving-- THE REAL THING (in its original 1984 mounting), and the magnificent ARCADIA (again, in the first NYC mounting at the Beaumont back in the 90's).

I'll also agree with Dolly's mention of the lighting not helping to distinguish who's who in the cast (or who was actually speaking from moment to moment onstage). We were front mezzanine and even with binoculars we had a hell of a time picking out who was who. 

We hope one day a smart director would mount this show with an entr'acte between each Act where each actor passes his or her role on to the next actor to play the part. We'd feel a visceral connection across the decades and the story tracts would stay so much clearer. And leading in to Act V, most of the cast would have no-one to pass the part on to....

Updated On: 3/2/23 at 03:49 PM

[TheatreMonkey]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 4:54pm

I'm genuinely curious if watching the National Theatre filming would change your opinion of this work -- with the mere act of filming the stage work, you gain close-ups and other ways of directing or guiding the focus of the audience. While I admit that the large, epic sweep of characters and history that Stoppard is known for can be disorienting at times, I hesitate, personally, to view it as a negative against his work.

Seriously, I'm truly interested if viewing the filmed version would change your point of view; I watched it via a VPN and the NT@home app, though it may not still be available.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 6:17pm

I didn't realize it had been filmed.

[BETTY22]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 6:59pm

It’s genius. 
My favorite theatre experience in the last year. 
I’m going to see it again before it closes 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 9:50pm

pethian said: "chrishuyen said: " I feel like I spent a good chunk of the first scene just trying to figure out which person was the Christian one and I was wrong for a while."



Are you saying that's a criticism? Because one of the major points of that first masterful scene is how assimilated the Jews of Vienna were. Not being able to distinguish who's Jewish and who is not is to the point!

"

I think this is the correct take--its meant to be unclear who is of which lineage to start because by the end, nothing else will matter.  similarly, its not an accident that you dont know who is who--- its powerful that you get all caught up in this massive multi generational family that you know will for the most part be totally annihilated. its a smart way of conveying the scale of something impossible to measure.

That said I agree with Dollypop's take here almost entirely. Stoppard's writing never blows me away, but its also never been attached to such heavy/personal subject matter, and the disconnect there left me VERY underwhelmed. Yes, its a beautiful well acted production (Uranowitz especially) but what is it really saying? I dont know.

i think it might not be saying a whole lot, other than "this horrible stuff happened and we need to remember it, and these victims' descendants must not run from it." and thats ok! but it didnt really do much for me ultimately. and i say this as someone who isnt just half Jewish, but my Jewish grandparents were born and raised in/around Vienna in the early 1920s. This story, more than any other I can think of, is very much about my family's experience (as largely assimilated Jews who refused to believe their neighbors would have them killed, until they tried to do just that), and it left me cold.

and yes i still recommend it? it didnt bore me. its an important story. i might go back to see josh malina.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 10:02pm

I'd be curious to hear how this plays to a Non-Jewish person. Not implying anything, but curious, since a lot of critics are Jewish so this might speak to them in a way that it might not to me. Or any other audience members who have experienced that? It just doesn't interest me despite the overall praise. Stoppard has never been my thing. 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 10:21pm

i saw it with two nonJews who wept and loved it, certainly more than I did. it was sold out the entirety of its run in London, and came to Bway on the back of its tremendous success there. the idea that it hasnt, or wouldn't, appeal to 99% of the population is somewhat absurd. (but if you dont like stoppard, by all means, skip it- i didnt like it all that much).

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 11:28pm

I’m Catholic and I found the show deeply affecting. I still think about it. A friend who is an actor told me before I saw the show, “Don’t worry about who is who and how they are related. Don’t worry about tracking characters. Listen to the dialogue and tap into the emotion.” I was grateful for that advice. 
 

To me there was a lot of parallel process going on as an audience member. As someone else stated, Stoppard seemed to be doing a type of shell game with the characters. They are all human and therefore none of them deserved the inhumanity they faced. There was no need to even think about what religion someone was. All of the characters were complex, full bodied, loving and flawed. Yes many were painted in broad strokes but they were all shown as interconnected in ways that would create trauma for those that lived to tell the history. We were given vignettes of how things evolved for them and shown their humanity, humor, fear, anger and beauty in each vignette. 
 

Also I was deeply moved by the relevance today. Eerily relevant. As a gay man living in a country going after drag shows, it would be easy for me practice some detachment as both a defense mechanism, a survival technique. That first Christmas with the family there is a sense of waiting for this ugliness to pass. Well it never passed. It tore a tragic and traumatic hole in the fabric of their family. It was chilling and affecting. Watching that holiday with foreboding, wanting a different outcome but knowing the inevitable. Thinking about what I can do to help ensure that an atrocity like this does not occur again. The show felt very immersive to me. 
 

Those lost in death camps and those who survived are at risk of being forgotten if we do not keep their names and their stories alive. I think some of the letting go of following specific characters in this play  allows audience members to project onto those characters. Maybe people they remember from their past or present based on the personalities or archetypes of the characters. To see how things evolve for them is truly devastating. It could happen to any of us if we do not remember this history, speak of it, share it. It also reminds us off the importance of speaking out against hatred and bigotry. 

[TheatreMonkey]

Posted: 3/2/23 at 11:55pm

Bettyboy72 said: "I’m Catholic and I found the show deeply affecting. I still think about it. A friend who is an actor told me before I saw the show, “Don’t worry about who is who and how they are related. Don’t worry about tracking characters. Listen to the dialogue and tap into the emotion.” I was grateful for that advice.


To me there was a lot of parallel process going on as an audience member. As someone else stated, Stoppard seemed to be doing a type of shell game with the characters. They are all human and therefore none of them deserved the inhumanity they faced. There was no need to even think about what religion someone was. All of the characters were complex, full bodied, loving and flawed. Yes many were painted in broad strokes but they were all shown as interconnected in ways that would create trauma for those that lived to tell the history. We were given vignettes of how things evolved for them and shown their humanity, humor, fear, anger and beauty in each vignette.


Also I was deeply moved by the relevance today. Eerily relevant. As a gay man living in a country going after drag shows, it would be easy for me practice some detachment as both a defense mechanism, a survival technique. That first Christmas with the family there is a sense of waiting for this ugliness to pass. Well it never passed. It tore a tragic and traumatic hole in the fabric of their family. It was chilling and affecting. Watching that holiday with foreboding, wanting a different outcome but knowing the inevitable. Thinking about what I can do to help ensure that an atrocity like this does not occur again. The show felt very immersive to me.


Those lost in death camps and those who survived are at risk of being forgotten if we do not keep their names and their stories alive. I think some of the letting go of following specific characters in this play allows audience members to project onto those characters. Maybe people they remember from their past or present based on the personalities or archetypes of the characters. To see how things evolve for them is truly devastating. It could happen to any of us if we do not remember this history, speak of it, share it. It also reminds us off the importance of speaking out against hatred and bigotry."

Beautifully and eloquently stated! I, too, fear this march towards an ignorant, more hate-based country, and find the resonance of this play quite timely. And for those wondering, you don't have to be Jewish, or gay, or part of any oppressed minority to be moved and affected by this play -- you just have to be human.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 1:39am

I'm a practicing Catholic whose parents were Italian and Polish. Although I have nothing to back it up, I feel there is some Jewish blood in the Polish side of my family. I also have a mezzuzah on my front door because I like what it stands for. 

I was raised in a mostly Italian neighborhood in Brooklyn but frequently  "crossed over" to the Jewish neighborhood because I liked the food in their grocery stores.  I'm not a stranger to the Jews and their history but am the first to admit I'm not an expert on it. 

As I said earlier, the story being told in  LEOPOLDSTADT is certainly deserving of being told. My qualms are with the MANNER in which it was written.

At Wednesday's matinee, the audience  was overwhelmingly Jewish. In fact, I wouldn' t be surprised to learn I was the only goy in the orchestra section of the theater.

Updated On: 3/3/23 at 01:39 AM

[RippedMan]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 7:32am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "i saw it with two nonJews who wept and loved it, certainly more than I did. it was sold out the entirety of its run in London, and came to Bway on the back of its tremendous success there. the idea that it hasnt, or wouldn't, appeal to 99% of the population is somewhat absurd. (but if you dont like stoppard, by all means, skip it- i didnt like it all that much)."

I don’t think it’s absurd at all given the average theater goer and the average NYC-er. This isn’t playing in Nebraska. But that’s good to know! Not sure it totally appeals to me but maybe I’ll read it down the line. 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 9:40am

RippedMan said: "PipingHotPiccolo said: "i saw it with two nonJews who wept and loved it, certainly more than I did. it was sold out the entirety of its run in London, and came to Bway on the back of its tremendous success there. the idea that it hasnt, or wouldn't, appeal to 99% of the population is somewhat absurd. (but if you dont like stoppard, by all means, skip it- i didnt like it all that much)."

I don’t think it’s absurd at all given the average theater goer and the average NYC-er. This isn’t playing in Nebraska. But that’s good to know! Not sure it totally appeals to me but maybe I’ll read it down the line."

I am not recommending the show, necessarily, because i didnt love it. And I'm not denying its popularity amongst NYC theatergoers, which is substantially Jewish. People will be more likely to buy a ticket to stories that feel personal to them (which is why I was so surprised how little this show did for me).

I am correcting the absurdity of suggesting the overwhelming rave reviews from critics is due to those critics being overwhelmingly Jewish (false, bizarre), or the suggestion that the "average NYC-er" is Jewish. Jews make up less than 20% of the NYC population, and a substantial portion of that sub-population are Orthodox and not seeing live theater. And given that this play originated in, swept awards in, sold out theaters in, the UK, I think its a rather absurd take. 

Not trying to be hostile; I'd have the same response to someone suggesting The Color Purple isnt for them because they're white. 

[Dollypop]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 10:42am

This thread has been a pleasure to read ---and it remained civil throughout. Thanks to everyone for their input.

[akhoya87]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 10:59am

I thought Leopoldstadt strikes a very good balance between being a cerebral play and being an emotional one.  The message, I think, is visually represented in the cat's cradle -- the anti-Semitism lurking in Viennese society (which erupts in the later scenes), as well as the play itself, start off a little formless, and sharpen in definition by the end.  But maybe I am overreading things.

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 11:31am

This thread has been great!  Definitely learning a lot about what other people see the play to be.  I'm not Jewish so I felt that I did miss context in some areas and some things seemed like they would've had more weight had I known that context, but I do enjoy the overall sentiment of the play. 

I wish that someone had also told me not to worry about the specific characters as much before the show, as I generally like following specific character arcs, so the effort spent tracking the characters through time possibly lessened the emotional impact in some areas, though the last scene was definitely very impactful.  I came out of the show wishing that it had focused more on that scene, maybe using that as a starting point rather than an ending point, but I think I understand more now what the show was trying to demonstrate with how assimilated the Jewish families in Vienna were and how much they were still othered.  I guess rather than specific character arcs, it's more of multiple slices of multiple lives and how they intersect, so thanks everyone for chiming in on that, as I certainly appreciate what it's doing a lot more now.

 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 3:26pm

chrishuyen said: "

I wish that someone had also told me not to worry about the specific characters as much before the show, as I generally like following specific character arcs, so the effort spent tracking the characters through time possibly lessened the emotional impact in some areas, though the last scene was definitely very impactful. 
"

I said this almost verbatim as the lights came up. Why didnt they tell us not to worry about who is who? And the answer I got was, how would they do that? Its a ridiculous pre-show warning to ignore the details. But I 100% also spent time trying to figure out who is who and why only to come to the conclusion that it doesnt matter for the purpose of understanding what happened to them.

They were recognizable to me. And they were obliterated. It was powerful, oddly, that the specific relationships didnt matter. 

 

[pethian]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 3:47pm

PipingHotPiccolo said: "I said this almost verbatim as the lights came up. Why didnt they tell us not to worry about who is who? "

Actually, Jesse Green did in his review and I was grateful for the counsel. He even underlined how there's a character who gives voice to it--her confusion about how she's related to everyone else. I passed this advice on to everyone I knew who was about to see the show.

 

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 3/3/23 at 4:45pm

Great point, Pethian. I dont remember if i read Green before or not, i probably did and forgot. The production's use of the family tree though isnt helpful in this regard...