West Side Story Revival will cut I Feel Pretty and Somewhere Ballet- Page 6

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 12:38pm

Impossible2 said: "joevitus said: "MemorableUserName said: "joevitus said: "I'm amused by the people who think they know the quality of a Sondheim song and whether it should be retainedbetter than Sondheim. He's all for cutting it. So one ballet will also be cut (not the song)? This is something to freak out about?

It's really still about one thing, as far as I can tell: the casting of Amar. Considering thekudosfor "making it relevant to a new generation" that the recent Oklahoma! revival got (which radically recreated its dream ballet to such an extent that one can say the "LaureyMakes Up her Mind" ballet was cut), and My Fair Lady got for literally changing the ending to the show, there's just no way this production would have received somuch nay-saying--sight unseen--as it currently has. On this board, anyway."

I'm amused that you joined this site on the day Ramasar's casting was announced solely to defend him, spent your first week doing so while slut-shaming his victims, and no matter what else, you keep showing you're really here about one thing.

Given your sneering contempt toward the women affected by his behavior, your lack of concern about the treatment of female characters isn't really a surprise, is it?

Perhaps one of van Hove's changes will be to have Bernardo constantly demanding nude pics from the women characters, and you can gleefully applaud and shout out, "They have it coming! Harlots!""

I've flagged this. We'll see if it stands. That I happened to join the day this was discussed is meaningless. I've said the guy's a creep everyone should stay away from. It's all irrelevant to aestheticcriticisms of the production itself. But it demonstrates that, as I said, this is indeed all about Amar, and the changes in the show are just a convenient excuse to attack the show. If he left, everyone's position on the changes would likely "evolve.""

I cannot believe people are still throwing this at you...unbelievable!

You said absolutely nothing wrong, just ignore the freaks."

Thank you. It turns out it was the first topic I ever commented on (I didn't even remember that, which tells you how relevant it was to me--I thought I'd joined a few weeks earlier). But some people have branded me a person who hates women and worse from that point on. And I was told from day one no one would tolerate me here because of it. This kind of thing goes on to often here, and doesn't actually do anything to really stand up against abuse or to make sure women have a place of equal strength on Broadway.

I'm sure I'll be accused of highjacking the thread. That happens every time I defend myself from attacks like that (the attacks aren't instances of highjacking, somehow). So no need to respond to this and keep this part of the conversation going. Just know I appreciate your comment. 

Updated On: 11/11/19 at 12:38 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 12:39pm

After Eight said: "Joevitus wrote: “Everyone's sure.”



Mmm, I'd say it's best to refrain speaking for everyone."

99.9 percent of the people and everyone who controls the rights to the original work are sure.

[Leadingman19]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 12:44pm

My prediction: this will be great. With all of the material being cut, everything after the rumble will be thrilling. There won't be as much fluff in between Chino seeing Tony kill Bernardo and the "he killed your brother" scene, so his descent to killing Tony at the end will feel more like a furious reaction to the rumble than it previously has.

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 12:46pm

“99.9 percent of the people and everyone who controls the rights to the original work are sure.”


Perhaps, but remember: to assume is to presume.

Updated On: 11/11/19 at 12:46 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 1:08pm

Leadingman19 said: "My prediction: this will be great. With all of the material being cut, everything after the rumble will be thrilling. There won't be as much fluff in between Chino seeing Tony kill Bernardo and the "he killed your brother" scene, so his descent to killing Tony at the end will feel more like a furious reaction to the rumble than it previously has."

Good point!

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 1:30pm

So what we're being told in this thread is that one can't criticize the announced changes in the show until one has seen the show.

And then, if someone does see the show and criticizes the previously-announced changes, there's a response at the ready: “Well you knew beforehand about these changes, so why did you go?”

Priceless.

 

[Impossible2]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 2:00pm

After Eight said: "So what we're being told in this thread is that one can't criticize the announced changes in the show until one has seen the show.

And then, if someone does see the show and criticizes the previously-announced changes, there's a response at the ready:“Well you knewbeforehand about these changes, so why did you go?”

Priceless.

"

People have been down on it from the minute it was announced and would probably have never gone anyways. All they do now is hang around like a bad smell and whinge about something they'd have never seen in the first place.

[ModernMillie3]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 2:08pm

I'm amused that you joined this site on the day Ramasar's casting was announced solely to defend him, spent your first week doing so while slut-shaming his victims, and no matter what else, you keep showing you're really here about one thing.

Given your sneering contempt toward the women affected by his behavior, your lack of concern about the treatment of female characters isn't really a surprise, is it?

Perhaps one of van Hove's changes will be to have Bernardo constantly demanding nude pics from the women characters, and you can gleefully applaud and shout out, "They have it coming! Harlots!"

Brilliant. Factual. Outstanding. You get all the applause today!

[Impossible2]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 2:17pm

MemorableUserName said: "joevitus said: "I'm amused by the people who think they know the quality of a Sondheim song and whether it should be retainedbetter than Sondheim. He's all for cutting it. So one ballet will also be cut (not the song)? This is something to freak out about?

It's really still about one thing, as far as I can tell: the casting of Amar. Considering thekudosfor "making it relevant to a new generation" that the recent Oklahoma! revival got (which radically recreated its dream ballet to such an extent that one can say the "LaureyMakes Up her Mind" ballet was cut), and My Fair Lady got for literally changing the ending to the show, there's just no way this production would have received somuch nay-saying--sight unseen--as it currently has. On this board, anyway."

I'm amused that you joined this site on the day Ramasar's casting was announced solely to defend him, spent your first week doing so while slut-shaming his victims, and no matter what else, you keep showing you're really here about one thing.

Given your sneering contempt toward the women affected by his behavior, your lack of concern about the treatment of female characters isn't really a surprise, is it?

Perhaps one of van Hove's changes will be to have Bernardo constantly demanding nude pics from the women characters, and you can gleefully applaud and shout out, "They have it coming! Harlots!""

Utter bollocks. Asking people to take some responsibility for their own actions is not slut shaming them.

[LuPita2]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 2:18pm

People saying cutting "I Feel Pretty" doesn't matter or won't upset the balance of the show are just wrong. Twelve years ago I played Maria is my high school's production of WSS. I was called "dirty" by a terrible bully in my high school for years for my skin color, and I get that that was about her not me, but that didn't make it hurt any less. That song is important in the show because it's a woman of color feeling confident and loved. When the world is telling this person you are low and less than, it's important for her to have that moment in time. This still happens daily in the real world, so that song meant everything to me. It always will. 

He is trying to do something different, understood. But, to make it even more a male dominated story that it already was is doing the show a disservice, in my opinion. 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 2:21pm

LuPita2 said: "People saying cutting "I Feel Pretty" doesn't matter or won't upset the balance of the show are just wrong. Twelve years ago I played Maria is my high school's production of WSS. I was called "dirty"by a terrible bully in my high school for years for my skin color, and I get that that was about her not me, but that didn't make it hurt any less. That song is important in the show because it's a woman of color feeling confident and loved. When the world is telling this person you are low and less than, it's important for her to have that moment in time. This still happens daily in the real world, so that song meant everythingto me. It always will.

He is trying to do something different, understood. But, to make it even more a male dominated story that it already was is doing the show a disservice, in my opinion."

 

NO one is trying to take away your "right" to sing "I Feel Pretty" any time you damn well feel like it!  Lol.  So go have at it --- wig, costume and all!  

[JBroadway]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 2:59pm

@LuPita2 and @Itonlytakesajourney:

I just want to say that, while I am one of the people who has been arguing in favor of the cuts, I appreciate your perspectives, and I think if we have to have a debate about this issue, it's your kind of posts that are the most constructive. As I've said before, all of this belly-aching about "authorial intent" and the numbers being "iconic" is just a way of blindly dismissing something because because of a rigid, puritanical treatment of art. But you two are some of the only people who are actually coming at this from an analytical point of view - because making changes to a text should be judged by their actual impact on the text. Not by the mere fact that changes are being made in the first place. You are making a legitimate case for why cutting those numbers would negatively impact the piece, and I respect that. And it may very well be that when I see the production, I'll end up agreeing with your assessments. 

The only thing I'd say in response, is that these changes are all in service of a particular angle on the text - a directorial vision - in this case, we now know that he is focusing on the pacing and passage of time. This re-focusing of the text may highlight certain qualities, certain positive attributes in the show, that are usually not highlighted. But in the process, some other themes and qualities will be focused on less, which may turn some people off, because the moments that made the show resonate with you the most are no longer there. And that is perfectly valid. But it's a testament to the material that different artists can take such different things from it, and have those things reflected in their unique productions. And that's one of the benefits of having pieces in the theatrical canon that can be produced over and over across the decades: that this one production might choose to take an angle on the text that you disagree with, or that doesn't resonate with you, but for someone else, the the show might resonate for the first time. And then later, another production will come along that perfectly highlights what YOU love about the piece, and everyone wins! 

[Sputnik-Z]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 3:46pm

“When I listened to it again, when I read it again, I discovered this very brutal world, a divided world where people search for unity by exclusion of the other—the person who is not like you,” van Hove says. “It seemed as if it were written yesterday. So that’s our aspiration: to make a West Side Story for the 21st century.”

Where have I heard this before? Is this the West aside Story that f**ks?

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 3:55pm

LuPita2 said: "People saying cutting "I Feel Pretty" doesn't matter or won't upset the balance of the show are just wrong. Twelve years ago I played Maria is my high school's production of WSS. I was called "dirty"by a terrible bully in my high school for years for my skin color, and I get that that was about her not me, but that didn't make it hurt any less. That song is important in the show because it's a woman of color feeling confident and loved. When the world is telling this person you are low and less than, it's important for her to have that moment in time. This still happens daily in the real world, so that song meant everythingto me. It always will.

He is trying to do something different, understood. But, to make it even more a male dominated story that it already was is doing the show a disservice, in my opinion."

I appreciate your sharing that, and I'm sorry that you had to experience such awful behavior. That's terrible and wrong. I think you make a good argument for the song being in the show.

I don't think the creators were considering the issue of "A woman of color feeling confident and loved" was in the mindset of the creators, as that sort of perspective really only became articulated in a post-1960's world. Even people aware of prejudice and intolerance didn't get how those things impacted self-image and concepts of beauty and personal integrity. But that they weren't going for that certainly doesn't mean it isn't there. Works of art often turn out to have more meaning than their initial creator's intentions. 

 I also think, again, one production trying out the work without it isn't an earth-shattering event. "I Feel Pretty" isn't going to disappear from the history of West Side Story, and it isn't likely to disappear from future productions as a general rule. 

[Jarethan]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:03pm

After Eight said: "So what we're being told in this thread is that one can't criticize the announced changes in the show until one has seen the show.

And then, if someone does see the show and criticizes the previously-announced changes, there's a response at the ready:“Well you knewbeforehand about these changes, so why did you go?”

Priceless.

I don’t agree.  Anyone who goes in with an open mind will either like the changes or not, based on their perception of the impact on the overall experience.  I just think it is wrong to go in expecting to dislike the outcome to the point of being close-minded re the changes.  We are talking about eliminating a silly filler song (although with a great melody) and some dance that doesn’t really further the story IMO.  (Personally, I have never seen a production of WSS that I didn’t wish had some judicious cuts). 

Of course, if you tell me they are cutting out the Hello, Dolly or Rose’s Turn or the end of Act 1 in Les Mis, that’s a different matter.  There is material that is so associated with the show...would Dolly have been the hit it was without that number or Gypsy?  But I Feel Pretty.  Not the same thing by a mile, again IMO.

 

[ljay889]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:08pm

After Eight said: "So what we're being told in this thread is that one can't criticize the announced changes in the show until one has seen the show.

And then, if someone does see the show and criticizes the previously-announced changes, there's a response at the ready:“Well you knewbeforehand about these changes, so why did you go?”

Priceless.

"

This may be the first time in history that I am glad to be on After Eight’s side. Everything you’re saying is 100 percent correct.

Updated On: 11/11/19 at 04:08 PM

[JBC3]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:10pm

When Forbidden Broadway does I Feel Petty, we'll know some of their likely inspiration.

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:12pm

^

The point is not that a closed-minded person will be criticized for criticizing the changes after having seen the show.

It's that an open-minded person will likewise be criticized.

The simple fact is you will not be allowed to criticize the changes, plain and simple.

Nor can one ever care about authorial intent, much less wish to see it respected.

That's a no-no, as articulated in no uncertain terms by a poster above.

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:39pm

Dramatic much? How can you "not be allowed" to have an opinion. Exactly how would that be enforced, anyway?

If a disagreement is taken as mandate for enforced silence, I can understand the mentality of these threads a bit better.

Updated On: 11/11/19 at 04:39 PM

[Jarethan]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:41pm

After Eight said: "^

The point is not that a closed-minded person will be criticized for criticizing the changes after having seen the show.

It's that an open-minded person will likewise be criticized.

The simple fact is you will not be allowed to criticize the changes, plain and simple.

Nor can one ever care about authorial intent, much less wish to see it respected.

That'sa no-no, as articulated in no uncertain terms by a poster above."

I just ignore people who summarily dismiss my opinions.  They are entitled to theirs and I to mine.

The thing we must all realize from this board is that people have different tastes and opinions, and that’s okay.  What I object to —regardless of where it comes from — is what I consider to be nasty feedback, more than a little of which comes from you.  The fact that you don’t like Sondheim musicals doesn’t mean that everyone who does is an idiot, which IMO is the feeling you have frequently conveyed.

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:45pm

ljay889 said: "After Eight said: "So what we're being told in this thread is that one can't criticize the announced changes in the show until one has seen the show.

And then, if someone does see the show and criticizes the previously-announced changes, there's a response at the ready:“Well you knewbeforehand about these changes, so why did you go?”

Priceless.

"

This may be the first time in history that I am glad to be on After Eight’s side. Everything you’re saying is 100 percent correct."

Except it's 100% false. That's the only problem with it. Anyone can criticize anything, even sight unseen. And others can argue that a criticism, especially sight unseen, isn't well-founded. It's called discussion and no one "wins," or manages to "forbid" the opposite idea from being expressed. Everyone will express their views as frequently or infrequently as they feel like. 

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 4:59pm

Were I to sit in the audience knowing nothing in advance about this particular production, I would not be thinking about the "pacing" or "passage of time".  I would be wondering what in the Hell happened to I Feel Pretty or the Somewhere ballet.  And why no intermission?  But I do know about this production in advance and I won't be sitting in the audience.  It may be a show that stands on its own and has merits, but in this formulation, it ain't West Side Story.   

Today is Veterans Day.  If you know a veteran, please thank her/him for their service to our country.  And if you are  a veteran, "Thank You".

Updated On: 11/11/19 at 04:59 PM

[Impossible2]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 6:22pm

After Eight is gonna choke on his own word salad shortly...

[After Eight]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 7:24pm

 “Of course, if you tell me they are cutting out the Hello, Dolly or Rose’s Turn or the end of Act 1 in Les Mis, that’s a different matter.”

To you, perhaps, but the artistic “visionaries” who ride roughshod over the works of others don't care what you, I, or anyone else thinks, save perhaps those who gush over their every move.

You see, once one starts down this road, there is no such thing as limits, boundaries, or restrictions on the “genius” of these assorted ground breakers and enfants terribles. Everything is fair game, and nothing is sacred.

We've seen this scenario play out fully in the world of opera.

And now it's happening here.

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/11/19 at 7:26pm

After Eight said: "“Of course, if you tell me they are cutting out the Hello, Dolly or Rose’s Turn or the end of Act 1 in Les Mis, that’s a different matter.”

To you, perhaps, but the artistic “visionaries” who ride roughshod over the works of othersdon't care what you, I, or anyone else thinks, save perhapsthose who gush over their every move.

You see, once onestarts down this road, there is no such thing as limits, boundaries, or restrictions on the “genius”of these assorted ground breakers and enfants terribles.Everything is fair game, and nothing is sacred.

We've seen this scenario play out fullyin the world of opera.

And now it's happening here."

So? Welcome to the world of opera.

If you are shocked now, wait until these works have gone into the public domain.