Evan Hanson IS a sociopath- Page 2

[Rainah]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 8:16am

I don't even think he can be called a pathological liar. Nothing about his lies in the show were really pathological, and he doesn't lie for no reason. 

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 9:15am

It’s interesting that discussion about a show ostensibly about mental health awareness tends to come with a bunch of people saying “he’s not mentally ill!”, which really says something both about our fundamental cultural misunderstanding of mental illness and the show’s own clumsy handling of its subject.

[Rainah]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 9:32am

Who is saying he's not mentally ill? I'm saying one cannot toss around a diagnosis without taking a moment to actually read what it is. For what it's worth, I am literally a social worker with a specialization in youth, and do a lot of mental health work. I can't think of any way Evan would be diagnosed 'sociopathic' (which is not a real diagnosis) or a pathological liar.

The main labels I would consider relevant are, as noted, anxiety and potential autism spectrum. One could make an arguement for cluster c but I don't think he fits well enough. For anything more specific I'd have to rewatch, I'm not overly fond of the show and it's been a while.

[megs17]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 10:50am

As someone on the "high-functioning" end of the spectrum, myself, there's not a doubt in my mind that Evan is autistic. In some ways, it's obvious. He's very black-and-white in his thinking (in a show that prides itself on its morally gray characters, making this feels like an intentional choice), he's got a clearly defined special interest (trees), and just about every actor who plays him has given him lots of physical tics and fidgets (ie stimming). 

But even further than that, he is shown to be very unaware of how his actions and words will be taken by other people (not realizing the Murphys would want to see the emails, ditching Jared in spite of his desperate attempts to cling to him, etc) and oftentimes, he does wildly inappropriate things without even realizing how bad it is until later (kissing Zoe on her brother's bed, spinning the lie even further when he could have kept his mouth shut, etc). He hides in a fantasy world and talks to an imaginary friend, he only picks up on a lot of things when they're explicitly laid out for him, he over-explains and corrects himself when it's not even necessary ("I love jazz. Well, not all jazz, but definitely like, jazz-band-jazz"] , and most of the big turning points in the show stem from him trying to make people stop yelling/expressing strong emotion (giving the note to Cynthia in the principal's office, telling the story in "For Forever", tearing down his loved ones in "Good For You," and even finally confessing the lie). He obviously feels very powerful emotions, but often doesn't seem to know how to express them, and he gets uncomfortable when others wear their feelings on their sleeve.

And, what's most interesting, he stops taking his meds and sees no real negative consequence. If he just had anxiety, that would be questionable writing at best. But, if the story becomes about a misdiagnosed autistic kid, suddenly that plot point makes more sense and gives a stronger reason for his belief that he's broken, and that his mom is trying to "fix" him. The medications and therapy wouldn't have been working, because treatment for anxiety doesn't take away autism. Nothing does. And if he was doing all this work and not seeing any relief to the symptoms, of course he'd feel hopeless and different, like there was something inherently wrong with him. Not to get dark, but autistic kids are ten times more likely to attempt suicide than neurotypical ones, and though there haven't been studies yet, I would not be surprised if that number was even higher for those who are undiagnosed, and that only makes Evan's own attempt make more sense.

I've seen some people argue that he can't be on the spectrum because he "gets better" during the peak of the Connor Project and in the ending scene at the orchard. But life as an autistic person isn't constant suffering and self-doubt. With a strong support system and things to do that make you feel valuable, it's very possible to reach that place of self-assurance and comfort. It all does makes sense. And if you watch the musical with the idea in mind that Evan is on the spectrum, it immediately becomes a better, more cohesive show, and he becomes much more sympathetic as a character.

Updated On: 3/14/19 at 10:50 AM

[Ourtime992]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 4:56pm

As another person on the autism spectrum, and with a 16 year-old son who is too, I think you're absolutely right. Seeing this show was like looking in a mirror while it kicked me in the teeth. I'm sure the characterization differs from actor to actor, but when I saw it, there was no question in my mind that I was seeing a portrayal of the type of ASD I live with.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 7:21pm

denali.fire said: "Just for the record

Most HS students are sociopaths,

Take it from a retired teacher."

I too am a retired teacher, in my case from teach college freshmen and women, so roughly the same age. It's true that adolescence is a time of changing bodies, behaviors and minds, so naturally teens tend to be self-focused.

That is not the same as clinical sociopathy. It's no aid to clarity to conflate the two, IMO. (But I do know what you mean.)

[dotseurat2]

Posted: 3/14/19 at 11:31pm

I'm a parent of a high functioining autistic and the show still pisses me off. The only time it did touch me were the scenes with Evan and his Mom because I 100% felt them. My own parental guilt destroyed me, that feeling of wanting to "fix" my child all the while knowing my child is aware of this. I guess the rest of the show irks me because of Connor's family. The fact that they fall for all this? Come on. They really didn't know their own kid?! I was rolling eyes like crazy into the second act, especially with how out of hand it got. I have never seen a show make me angry like this. And the music...bleh. But then I didn't see Ben Platt and Groundhog Day completely stole my heart as well as Andy Karl. So maybe I couldn't open my heart up to it.

Updated On: 3/14/19 at 11:31 PM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 2:32pm

They believed because it helped them cope.  No matter how angry they were with him, they loved him -- and was happy to believe that someone understood him where they didn't.

 

it's called a coping mechanism

[Impossible2]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 2:46pm

It appears none of you actually know what a sociopath is or what their behaviours and methods are.

He is NOT a sociopath.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 3:08pm

I am surprised that I even opened this post because I usually ignore topics with over-the-top subject lines.

Evan Hansen is absolutely NOT a sociopath.  He is a kid sad and lonely kid, a complete outsider (we learn that in the first five minutes of the show) who unintentionally fumbles his way into becoming more accepted, particularly by the girl he has secretly pined for for for a long time.  This sudden taste of receiving the slightest interest, particularly by the girl, is intoxicating...and he digs deeper.  Suddenly acceptance is like heroin to him...and he can't figure out how climb out of the mess.

What would have happened the brother had not written on his cast?  Nothing, because he never would have initiated anything in the first place.  I see the ending the shows very sad, because Evan and the girl (obviously, I can't remember her name) clearly cared for each other beyond the link to the brother, but too much had transpired and this was  notary-com.  

The whole event allowed him to grow, and I personally believed that his awkward, sad, desperate experience positioned him forgetter life than he would've had.  One person's opinion.

[Luminaire2]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 3:36pm

Come From Away was robbed.

Okay bye.

[Scott19]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 4:25pm

What @Luminaire2 says.

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 7:04pm

I don’t think the character is a sociopath.

But I think this show is a gross story that tries to use the predictable “liar reveal” narrative about someone who does something really hideous and then they try to justify it all the way to the bank.

It will never sit well with me and the ending especially is so ludicrous.

[LuminousBeing]

Posted: 3/15/19 at 11:24pm

Mental health professional here.

People (in the US) aren't diagnosed with "sociopathy" any more; the term has been replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder. Below is the diagnostic criteria so that we all know what we are asking when we debate whether Evan is a "sociopath." Everything below is copied from the DSM-V.

Antisocial Personality Disorder 

Diagnostic Criteria:
A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following [under A. Criteria B, C, and D must ALL be met, too]:

1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

B. The individual is at least age 18 years.
C. There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.
       NB: Conduct disorder involves a repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights  of others or major age-appropriate social norms or rules are violated [and has its own long set of diagnostic criteria the person has to meet]. The specific characteristics of conduct disorder fall into one of four categories: aggression to people and animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness or theft, or serious violation of rules.
D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Diagnostic Features
The essential feature of antisocial personality disorder is a pervasive pattern of and disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood....For this diagnosis to be given, the individual must be at least age 18 years...and must have had a history of some symptoms of conduct disorder before age 15 years....Individuals with antisocial personality disorder also tend to be consistently and extremely irresponsible....[which] may be indicated by significant periods of unemployment despite available job opportunities....There may also be a pattern of repeated absences from work that are not explained by illness....Individuals with antisocial personality disorder show little remorse for the consequences of their acts. They may be indifferent to, or provide a superficial rationalization for having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from someone (e.g. 'life's unfair'...These individuals may blame the victims for being foolish, helpless, or deserving their fate...; they may minimize the harmful consequences of their actions; or they may simply indicate complete indifference. They generally fail to compensate or make amends for their behavior. They may believe that everyone is out to "help number one" and that one should stop at nothing to avoid being pushed around.

Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis
Individuals with antisocial personality disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others. They may have an inflated and arrogant self-appraisal (e.g., feel that ordinary work is beneath them or lack a realistic concern about their current problems or their future) and may be excessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky. They may display a glib, superficial charm and can be quite voluble and verbally facile (e.g. using technical terms or jargon that might impress someone who is unfamiliar with the topic). Lack of empathy, inflated self-appraisal, and superficial charm are features that have been commonly included in traditional conceptions of psychopathy that may be particularly distinguishing of the disorder and more predictive of recidivism in prison or forensic settings, where criminal, delinquent, or aggressive acts are likely to be nonspecific. These individuals may...have a history of many sexual partners and may never have sustained a monogamous relationship....They may have [many associated disorders such as anxiety, depression, substance use, and disorders of impulse control]." . . .

My mini-diagnostic formulation of Evan based on the DSM-V criteria (for any interested):
Re:1 - Evan did raise money under false pretenses, but the orchard WAS built; he didn't keep the money for himself. Aside from forgery and other actions related to the Connor Project I'm not sure what illegal actions he performed. While his actions in the show do not constitute model behavior, they are not emblematic of a pervasive pattern of failing to conform to societal laws since age 15.
Re: 2 - Deceitfulness - yes, clearly Evan engages in deceitful behavior. It is debatable as to whether he does so "for personal profit or pleasure" or if he initially lies out of severe anxiety, making his rise in social standing, relationship with Zoe/the Murphys, etc., are secondary gains from that lie as opposed to the original object of the lie. The fact that he perpetuates the lie in order to maintain his relationships with Zoe and the Murphys  DOES indicate lying for "profit." It is not airtight, but it fits.
Re: 3 - Impulsivity - yes, Evan is impulsive in some ways. In others, he is painfully avoidant (skipping dinner because of being afraid to talk to the pizza guy?). In any case impulsivity alone is hardly grounds for diagnosing a teenager with a personality disorder.
RE: 4-7 - Not supported: He is irritable at times, but he never assaults anyone. He is not "consistently irresponsible" in terms of failing to meet obligations (i.e. he is not truant, he shows up to do the assembly speech despite being anxious, etc.). And, most importantly, he distinctly shows remorse and understanding that he committed wrongdoing in "Words Fail."

B: Is Evan 18 yet? If 17, he does not meet criteria. Diagnosing an 18-year-old with a personality disorder is rare but can occur when all criteria are soundly met.
C: There is absolutely NO evidence of conduct disorder prior to age 15.
D. Evan is not schizophrenic, and it is unlikely that he has bipolar. (though there are many types of bipolar so it can't be eliminated). So this one passes.

Looking at the diagnostic features, it is clear that Evan does not fit the "mold."

I would not diagnose Evan Hansen with Antisocial Personality Disorder. Criterion A.2 and D are the only ones that definitely fit, and A.2 may be debatable.

Does Evan do some very wrong things in the show? Absolutely. Can his actions can be justified by his mental health challenges? Not remotely. But does he have Antisocial Personality Disorder, a.k.a. is he a sociopath? No.

If you made it to the end, congratulations on your fortitude, and many thanks.

[artscallion]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 8:03am

In summary, you pretty much have to be a Batman villain to be classified as a sociopath. Evan, on the other hand, just a mildly messed up teen.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 1:13pm

artscallion said: "In summary, you pretty much have to be a Batman villain to be classified as a sociopath. Evan, on the other hand, just a mildly messed up teen."

To your first sentence, no.  To your second, yes.

 

[Impossible2]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 3:04pm

artscallion said: "In summary, you pretty much have to be a Batman villain to be classified as a sociopath. Evan, on the other hand, just a mildly messed up teen."

He doesn't show any of the traits of any of the Cluster B personality disorders, even the lesser scale ones.

He doesn't have the over the top emotional reactions of someone with Borderline Personality Disorder nor the ME ME ME or cruel traits of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. If he doesn't have any of those traits, he certainly doesn't qualify for Anti-Social Personality Disorder as they do all that and more.

He told a lie, we all tell lies at some point in our lives.

[Kitsune]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 3:56pm

I'm a huge fan of Groundhog Day, Come From Away, and The Great Comet. That being said, I don't think Evan is a sociopath.

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen DEH yet. I do have tickets for September).

My beef with the show is that Evan uses Connor's suicide and the family's grief to become more popular and get together with Zoe. Yes, I know it's more nuanced than that, but as someone who has lost a family member and several friends to suicide, I find the idea horrifying. Not to mention insulting.

That being said, I can't speak to every family survivor of suicide. My mom and sister *love* the cast recording. My sister and I are taking my mom in September to celebrate her retirement from teaching. We'll see if my opinion changes once I've actually seen the show.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 6:52pm

dotseurat2 said: "I'm a parent of a high functioining autistic and the show still pisses me off. The only time it did touch me were the scenes with Evan and his Mom because I 100% felt them. My own parental guilt destroyed me, that feeling of wanting to "fix" my child all the while knowing my child is aware of this. I guess the rest of the show irks me because of Connor's family. The fact that they fall for all this? Come on. They really didn't know their own kid?! I was rolling eyes like crazy into the second act, especially with how out of hand it got. I have never seen a show make me angry like this. And the music...bleh. But then I didn't see Ben Platt and Groundhog Day completely stole my heart as well as Andy Karl. So maybe I couldn't open my heart up to it."

You should stay home and not waste your money on a medium that requires so much suspension of disbelief.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 6:58pm

dramamama611 said: "They believed because it helped them cope. No matter how angry they were with him, they loved him -- and was happy to believe that someone understood him where they didn't.



it's called a coping mechanism"

Thank you, Dramamama. What is it about DEH that turns some people into such literal-minded pedants? Is it that it's set in the present day and not in some exotic locale? Because when all is said and done, really, Evan Hansen behaves no worse than Marvin, Whizzer and Mendel.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 7:03pm

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "...and the ending especially is so ludicrous."

Yeah, 'cause nobody ever worked a nothing job to save up for college.

Or do you mean the fact that the Murphys never reported Evan to the police? Some people just don't want to publicly admit they have been gullible.

???

[artscallion]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 7:04pm

Impossible2 said: "artscallion said: "In summary, you pretty much have to be a Batman villain to be classified as a sociopath. Evan, on the other hand, just a mildly messed up teen."

He doesn't show any of the traits of any of the Cluster B personality disorders, even the lesser scale ones.

He doesn't have the over the top emotional reactions of someone with Borderline Personality Disorder nor the ME ME ME or crueltraits of someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Ifhe doesn't have any of those traits, he certainly doesn't qualify for Anti-Social Personality Disorder as they do all that and more.

He told a lie, we all tell lies at some point in our lives."

I think you're misreading my post. I agree with all you said.

 

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 3/16/19 at 10:52pm

To the comment about the ending, I do feel like there were a lot of factors in the Murphys' decision.  If you've read the book, it does mention that the internet backlash against them died down eventually, and I don't think they wanted to cause a whole other internet storm.  For them, they know that Evan is going to have to live with what he's done for the rest of his life, and maybe, in the few weeks/months that they've known him, they've come to feel for him.  It was a feeling based on artificial knowledge, but it was still there.  That's one of the things I like about this show - there are so many little moments and feelings that make the show whole.  (And while I love a lot of the other shows from the 16-17 season, this one is one of my favorite modern musicals - it's able to create moments that are both intimate and grandiose at the same time, and it doesn't feel jarring.)

[BwayFan4]

Posted: 3/17/19 at 12:21am

Yes.... Evan is surely "on the spectrum" as we say these days ("Aspergers" is an outdated term).  That said, I don't care for him much and the show is not my favorite.  I just don't really like the guy much or feel sympathetic toward him and his plight.. (I'm most sympathetic toward his mom, actually).

That said, I am not sure Evan is a "sociopath"...  I actually am far more concerned about people like Lori Loughlin and Felicity Huffman... those types of people are narcissistic and really upsetting because they've brought their children up that way...  Evan is at least well meaning, although misguided and a bit grating, and his mom is surely doing the best she can...

 

[Theatrefan2]

Posted: 3/17/19 at 12:37am

themysteriousgrowl said: "Discuss"

Why start a thread with one word and not contribute to it yourself?