The Case of the Mysterious Disapearing Thread, Part Deux- Page 4

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 5:21pm

Alan Henry said: "Hi all - just to sum up and clarify:

We absolutely encourage thoughtful, interesting, and creative discussions on the boards. I myself have enjoyed reading and learning on here over the years.

With that said - we're here to celebrate Broadway as much as we are to critically discuss it. We're all for threads for dreamcasting performers - but we need to do that in a respectful way. We're not saying you can't disagree or have opinions - just that when we disagree or want to write about someone we do so respectfully.

The thread that is originally being discussed here did cross a line in describing a performer. Considering it was the first/starting post of a thread - that is why the thread was removed. (By all means - let's start another.)

We delete when necessarybecause we don't want to be modifying what you guys post and misrepresenting your comments.

We hope you understand - and as usual, we are always open to feedback and improving how we moderate the board.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.

Alan."

Come on, Alan. I actually thought that the thread had been deleted because the third poster had called me an asshole. And I took the attack gracefully, merely pointing out that I was 15 years older than Kristin so not likely to be an "agist." Apparently "asshole" is not abusive, but referring to the possibility that age might affect the roles she is eligible to play is abusive. I can't understand this at all, but maybe that's because I'm not a theater person and I'm not knowledgable of what special issues are important to them.

But, in my defense, the "casting of Eliza" thread has gone on for months, with the age of the actress always considered. When casting of a role is discussed, how often does age come into it. How was one following The Eliza thread to know that bringing up an actress' age was, well, you didn't really say what it was but clearly was not good.

When back in February Kelli O'Hara was interviewed by Jim Zirin and asked point blank if she wanted to play Eliza and Kelli said that she loved the show and the score and the role and was very happy to have sung the role once with the New York Philharmonic but she believed that "that ship had sailed." Was Kelly being abusive to herself or to other actresses with that remark.

I'm a big fan of Kristin. I saw 20th Century four times. If Kristin had read this, do you think that she would have been offended? She herself admitted that you can't get away from aging. A long time ago she had been told that with age her upper range would become difficult, but she hadn't believed it. Now it was happening, but she really wasn't upset about it. Her singing would just have to adjust and she could sing certain parts better now. As I said in my brief thread in response to the one who had called me an "asshole," you can't run away from aging. It happens and you adjust as Kristin and Kelli have and they will have continued success.

I don't want to be overly dramatic, but when you start penalizing someone for speaking the truth because it's a truth you don't want to hear, then you're starting to act like that other side that is much more widely known for clamping down on freedom of expression.

I started that thread by saying that I didn't start many threads, and I'll return to that behavior. This is a tough board to post on if you don't know your stuff, and it has an awful lot of nervous lurkers, but I'll stick it out because I love the musical theater and most people are nice and everyone knows so much than me. It's a terrific learning experience. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 5:23pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "There is a person in this thread asking that others don't deny the fullness of her humanity (which, does, in fact, include racial heritage) and others just simply asserting that she's wrong in this request."

Oh, but that's not at all what happened. I actually said I fully agree with all of that.

So actually, I'm saying she's right in this request.

What this is about, is the big number of situations happening daily and that have been discussed on the board in the last few weeks, in which the race-card has been pulled, or remarks have been made, which were completely unfair and out of context. The subjects varied from a firing, a dreamcasting, a photoshoot, a picture on twitter, etc, etc, etc. People were attacking innocent people (such as a 16 year old innocent girl on twitter), in situations that have absolutely nothing to do with race. But they made it about it. This behaviour is harmful, and yet, when someone mentions this, they immediately say that their "indentity" is questioned. That somehow "not displaying this behaviour" is sacrificing their race. Which is absurd and the fact that some people don't understand this (like you) is a real problem.

This has nothing to do with sacrificing your heritage. Any person can see you are black and any healthy minded person will want you to fully embrace yourself and your history and all there is about you. But any healthy person will also know that you are human and that many situations are not about race and that there somehow is a problem with a maintained separation in society. We have to take a close look on who is actually maintaining this separation. Who is deliberately making every situation about race?

I think racism is a 2 way street. Yes, there are some racists who are prejudiced, but the group of people who does not focus on race is much bigger. Most white people, in many situations are actually much more interested in other traits. When I see a picture on twitter of 3 friends I immediately wonder about many things, who they are, where they know eachother from, where it is, what clothes they wear, but when it headlines "black power" (such as one of the recent situations) I immediately think, what the hell? It's  not like I don't see the 3 people in the picture are black. But wouldn't it be nice to actually put a headline above the picture about the situation, or about where it was taken or anything? You would be surprised about how many people are more interested in that. It's also not like people will see you as extra human or anything if you do the first. It's also not denying your identity if you don't. It is actually sacrificing a little bit of equality each time you make a misplaced remark like this, because it works in the opposite way. It definitely does not solve the problem. And the list of examples of this is endless, like discussed on this board.

It's also interesting that people speak about last century, history and what happened. We all know that. Back then some people were calling out race and color, which created and maintained a separation, which resulted in horrible things. Special demands for certain races, certain remarks only allowed to be made by certain races. An unhealthy race focus to say the least. We should not in any way, shape or form want to copy that in today's society but this time the other way around, to get "even" or anything. 

These double standards are the root of the problem. Just like people would judge "white power" or "yellow power" above a picture, we should also judge "black power". This reversed "get even game" is not the solution to equality. Period. Nobody will see you as extra human this way.

The only sacrifice you make by doing so is harming equality. You wouldn't want any other race or group to behave like that. Stop this double agenda.

And that goes for every human.

 

Updated On: 9/12/17 at 05:23 PM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 5:41pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "But what GeorgeandDot has written in this space (and in other threads as well) is a request that her full humanity to honored."

Actually, a race separation (by remarks such as "black power" ) dishonors full humanity.

 

SonofRobbieJ said: "But I hope anyone else posting here or simply reading this thread who might be of the bent of 'Why MUST we talk about race all the time! I don't see color!."

I do see color. And embrace and celebrate it. And I also see more than that. Which makes it not necessary to focus on the separation all the time.

 

Updated On: 9/12/17 at 05:41 PM

[gypsy101]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 6:06pm

BroadwayConcierge said: "What's more concerning is that these left-and-rightthread deletions are coming from a moderator team that still can't figure out how to let me type an 8 and a closed parenthesis without it turning into a cool-guy-with-sunglasses emoji.That'swho I'm entrusting with my free speech rights on here?"

omg BC that is the most annoying thing on this board

[Cat Guy]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 6:36pm

Here's my two bits.

I belonged to a website with chat boards.  I enjoyed participating, until a certain nastiness began to creep in.  As one of the few openly gay guys, it was common for me to be called most of the cruel names reserved for my community.  It was just too much, so I stopped joining in discussions and only observed from the sidelines.  One day when I logged on, the boards had been locked.  Everyone had been given a two-week timeout.  When the boards reopened, we had to sign a "play nice" agreement.  That worked for a few weeks before the same craziness started again.  The website still exists, but the boards are now gone.  A thing of the past.

The same could happen here.  That would be a shame.

I guess that was three bits.  

[JBC3]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 6:50pm

Age appropriateness is talked about all the time here and often in ways more harmful or ageist than the post that started the Chenowith thread (which I found nothing wrong with).

And when it comes to identity, it is pretty easy to go through life honoring the terms on which others ask us to engage with the mosaic of who they are. If race is not a vital or omnipresent part of that for you, fine. But if you want others to respect your reality, than you need to respect others who live a very different one.

[dshnookie]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 6:53pm

OlBlueEyes - just popping in to say how much I liked your response above :)

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 7:50pm

LYLS3637 said: "BroadwayConcierge said: "What's more concerning is that these left-and-rightthread deletions are coming from a moderator team that still can't figure out how to let me type an 8 and a closed parenthesis without it turning into a cool-guy-with-sunglasses emoji.That'swho I'm entrusting with my free speech rights on here?"



Good god. YOU HAVE NO FREE SPEECH RIGHTS HERE!!!!

This is a business entity that can monitor content HOWEVERit wants. You don't like it-- tough S H I T"

You seem nice.

[raddersons]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 8:21pm

Dave28282 said: "Actually, a race separation (by remarks such as "black power" )dishonors full humanity."

Are you white? Then you don't have a say in how race plays a role in people's own humanity, plain and simple, other than whiteness. It's not something you've experienced, only something you can guess. 

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 9:36pm

Alan, why don't you repost my original thread starter where all can see it. That will help me to understand in what way I was offensive. And I might have been. For example, I didn't until recently understand the importance of "diversity" to the theater community. Right now I still don't really understand why this post was offensive.

And if others don't find it offensive, then perhaps you might learn something useful.

Respectfully,

Frankie

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 10:18pm

greenifyme2 said: "Where is Margo?"

 

Already in here, posting as of the three or four pseudonyms he has. 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 10:26pm

OlBlueEyes said: "Alan, why don't you repost my original thread starter where all can see it. That will help me to understand in what way I was offensive. And I might have been. For example, I didn't until recently understand the importance of "diversity" to the theater community. Right now I still don't really understand why this post was offensive.

And if others don't find it offensive, then perhaps you might learn something useful.

Respectfully,

Frankie"

I certainly didn't think it was offensive...perhaps a a slightly odd way to word it.  Maybe the Cheno doesn't KNOW she's aging.   

 

While I didn't care about the thread itself (i seldom participate in casting threads) it seems a little ridiculous that it got deleted  But, it's their website, they can do what they want.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 9/12/17 at 10:26pm

OlBlueEyes said: "Alan, why don't you repost my original thread starter where all can see it. That will help me to understand in what way I was offensive. And I might have been. For example, I didn't until recently understand the importance of "diversity" to the theater community. Right now I still don't really understand why this post was offensive.

And if others don't find it offensive, then perhaps you might learn something useful.

Respectfully,

Frankie"

I certainly didn't think it was offensive...perhaps a a slightly odd way to word it.  Maybe the Cheno doesn't KNOW she's aging.   

 

While I didn't care about the thread itself (i seldom participate in casting threads) it seems a little ridiculous that it got deleted  But, it's their website, they can do what they want.

[Margo319]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 12:42am

"I think a good chunk of that is Chenoweth's doing.  Boobs front and center, dressing she is still 19, etc.  I have sometimes felt that she needs to decide what she wants to be when she grows up. "

The fact that THIS crap did not get deleted is amazing.

You clearly are a man to be ever talking like that about a woman.  You are disrespecting her body parts, shaming her and just generally being a complete dick.  Nope.  Don't ever think you can just demoralize and disrespect someone like that.  She can be whomever she wants and dress however she wants.  "Boobs front and center?"  What an absolute moron you are.  Take a class on how to respect woman since you clearly know none.

Updated On: 9/13/17 at 12:42 AM

[Pineapple Orange]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 12:50am

Hello,

Long time lurker and this thread oddly made me want to join in. Like most anonymous internet posts, I find these threads both interesting yet disheartening.

I've always wondered who posts “insulting” remarks of people who work their ass off in the entertainment industry.   I'm just a casual fan and nowhere near the Great White Way.  The Roundabout Theater thread was informative although maybe too speculative and it's removal reminded me of that thread, where the lady currently playing Frozen's  Anna, was not too pleased with what people had said about a musical that didn't get off the ground, prompting the moderators to ask their readers to behave.

It's well known being in show business requires thick skin because every celebrity, thanks to the anonymity of the internet, is attacked.  When IMDB still had their chat boards, even acting icon Meryl Streep was talked about in “unpleasant” terms. That was shocking to me, since all I've ever heard of her was praise. Though I don't believe in censorship, I enjoy reading people's posts more when the boards are well moderated.  As with a number of internet chat boards the subject matter often devolves into personal attacks and that's something you can watch politicians do daily.

This seems a “freedom of speech” debate and yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theater is still unacceptable.  You can have an opinion on how someone looks, or how someone reacts, without being disrespectful.   Most of the profile pictures are anonymous, but the performers are out there and they take the brunt and the blessings of being in show business.

If the person behind the keyboard were told they're too old, can't act and have as much a chance getting into show biz as VHS tapes making a comeback, how would they fare with the insults?    Maybe if the people posting “not so kind words” of celebrities were lucky, they'd be the one being insulted by anonymous people. And then maybe they'd want to be talked of  respectfully too.  Just maybe but I could be wrong. 

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 2:09am

Well, that's my problem, Pineapple. I could be mistaken, but you don't sound like you read the original thread. How can I defend myself without the display of the original?

The first reason that I brought up her age was that I was musing about my original decision that Kelli and Kristin should have ended in a Tony tie. Looking back at the role of Lily, I was thinking back to all the physical comedy, the physical dance numbers "Veronique" and "Babette," and factoring in the rehabilitation she was going through from the serious back injury, and factoring in her age as making it even more difficult such that she had to "live like a nun." Perhaps I should have omitted any mention to her age. If the general consensus was that I should have, then I would accept that, although still not really understanding it.

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 2:12am

dshnookie said: "OlBlueEyes -just popping in to say how much I liked your response above :)"

Thanks for the support, nook. I have to admit that I'm not really sure if I'm handling this My Way.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 5:55am

raddersons said: "Dave28282 said: "Actually, a race separation (by remarks such as "black power" )dishonors full humanity."

Are you white? Then you don't have a say in how race plays a role in people's own humanity, plain and simple, other than whiteness.It's not something you've experienced, only something you can guess."

Experienced what? Dishonoring my own full humanity? Sacrificing equality? The race separation focus is dishonoring full humanity. Whenever this happens to a human, it's important anyone steps up, be glad someone does. And doing it to yourself is one thing, but doing it to others, like you are doing right now is another.

[Pineapple Orange]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 8:31am

Hi Mr. Sinatra,

You're right. I never read the original thread because it was removed before I got to see it, so generally used this thread to gage what it might have said and speculated it may have gotten nasty as other internet “chat boards”. Again I'm a casual lurker, so only browse here every now and then for any topics of interest.

I generally like reading your posts even those I disagree with. Not sure why they deleted the original if all it did was bring up the Kelli Kristin argument yet again. It seems complimentary to both Tony winning actresses.   Could it be age being brought up,  is rarely talked about in men than in women when it comes to challenging roles? It's remarkable and admirable what these artists have to go through to entertain the masses, as you stated with Chenoweth, and some of these posts overlook that fact so I'm more appreciative when details come into play. It's refreshing to know there are theater fans interested in how performers prepare for roles, than merely being armchair critics.

[Alexander Lamar]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 8:48am

People still argue with Dave about racism? LOL

[JBC3]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 8:49am

We all age out of and age into certain things throughout life. While that process can certainly be talked about in ways that are hurtful or offensive, the mere mention of this reality should not be.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 9:27am

Dave28282 said: "I will never be the one bringing it up."

This is false. You started a thread about this exact issue on the off-topic board a week or two ago.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 9:52am

newintown said: "Wielding a torch, wearing a swastika, and screaming "Jews will not replace us" is a call for violence, calling back to ample precedent."

Singling out the swastika, do you think it should be illegal to display or march under this symbol? (For what it's worth, the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of free speech on this matter.)

I'm a little torn about it myself. I think my position remains that a flag with a certain design on it cannot in itself harm anyone, and so no one should be punished (by the government) for displaying it. That's surely what a libertarian should say about it. However, people who display swastikas and identify as Nazis are conspicuously aligning themselves with a movement responsible for the mass murder of millions of Jews and other minorities. Everyone on the planet recognizes the message that those individuals are sending. They are coming to start trouble.

I've uneasily decided that there shouldn't be laws against any political speech, but I'd regard punching (maybe killing) a Nazi as about as serious a crime as exceeding the speed limit by five miles per hour.

Updated On: 9/13/17 at 09:52 AM

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 10:29am

Rainah said: "Honestly, does BWW not ban or warn people? I cannot imagine thatDave28282's continuous comments about race are the kind of community they want to cultivate. There is a line, there is good taste, and both have been tossed out the window"

This isn't Dave's first screen name here. He was formerly dave19, and that name had to be deserted due to racist comments. He is just that type of person.

As for the deletion of various threads, that isn't a freedom of speech offence. Freedom of speech has to do with the government limiting your speech. Broadway World is not a government entity. They can censor whatever they want to censor. I do believe that that is something that should be done sparingly, but it is still important t remember that many in the business do haunt these boards, and showing a certain level of respect is important.

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 9/13/17 at 10:52am

Just thought I pop by and say that under no circumstances should the swastika be protected as free speech since the party for which it represents is responsible for the death of 6 million people as well as nearly 10 million soldiers, civilians, etc.  It should be considered a call for violence.  People should not be able to openly fly that flag.