The Heckler: Why I'm allergic to Stephen Sondheim- Page 4

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:03pm

Pianomann, thanks for the reply, you do have a point there, in between all of the completely random lyrics, notes and repetitions it does seem to go from frustrated to despondent. I do think that an ensemble prologue where every character is introduced with "I want this, I want that", is more an "introduction", and not necessarily an emotional journey. My previous post was actually about solo songs. Updated On: 3/22/15 at 04:03 PM

[Musical Master]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:06pm

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 04:06 PM

[Phillypinto]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:06pm

I think Sondheim's music is hard for the orchestra more than the singer. Forum especially is a good example of that. I really have never found Sondheim hard to sing

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:07pm

Dave, please actually cite some lyrics or music that back up your argument.

[PianoMann]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:07pm

Random melodies + very incoherent lyrics = vexatious in my opinion.

You respond to my perfectly coherent post that directly refutes your argument by completely deflecting it and regurgitating what you've already said dozens of times?

[Kad]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:09pm

YOU saw it as coherent, but he saw it as a collection of one-liners and random melodies.

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:17pm

Ehm no, I already replied on that.

My point is that Sondheim's solo songs are not interesting at all to me because of what I said. Usually my thoughts drift away halfway into the song, after nothing new is said, and then when I do listen to the 2nd half, the character stays in the exact same space emotionally and decribes the same drama using different sentences.

I feel like Sondheim sometimes on this forum too.

[PianoMann]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:25pm

Ehm no, I already replied on that.

Dave19, I missed your post acknowledging my reply in the page break, so I apologize! I'm glad you're able to follow the example I provided and admit that there is indeed emotional development for The Baker's Wife.

To address your point about Sondheim's solo songs, I'm sure someone could post a wonderful analysis of "Being Alive," which is a solo that exhibits a heck of a lot of development for Bobby.

I guess I'll chime out by saying that a blanket statement that there is no development in any of Sondheim's songs is incorrect. We may disagree on some, and we may be able to argue for or against which songs exhibit development, but it would be nice to come to the consensus that merely writing him off as a composer whose ensemble or solo compositions don't display emotional change is completely derivative and a hasty generalization.

[ljay889]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:32pm

On multiple occasions, Patti LuPone has stated that "God, That's Good!" Is the hardest song that she has ever sung.

When I have time I will find examples of performers discussing the difficulties of singing his music. Updated On: 3/22/15 at 04:32 PM

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:48pm

Thanks for the apologies Pianomann.

Let me apologize by saying that you are right when you say I shouldn't have said it the way I did. Sondheim feels like that to me, clearly not to others, including you. If you hadn't mentioned the prologue I would't have even noticed it, because I just didn't get it when watching the film.

Sung-through material is my absolute favourite and there is not 1 composer out there that makes me want to hear the lyrics being spoken instead of being sung, except Sondheim. I guess I just don't get it and I'm allergic to Sondheim and as a musical theatre and lyric-lover, I would like to understand why this is. And I think I know why, like I explained, the melodies go completely past me as I don't find them to be interesting or engaging and therefore the lyrics go past me too, (while other composers have the ability to completely draw me in and take me on an emotional journey) but that reason clearly doesn't apply for everyone.

"Not feeling it"(at all) might not need an excuse anyway.















Updated On: 3/22/15 at 04:48 PM

[SweetLips]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:49pm

Philly can we hear you sing some Sondheim to back up your statement?
Thanks

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:54pm

Well, that's certainly a nicer response than we've ever had from AfterEight, who possesses the amazing ability to **** the bed every time he posts.
Updated On: 3/22/15 at 04:54 PM

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:56pm

We could just ignore people who are contrary for the sake of being contrary.

[PianoMann]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 4:58pm

I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that you're "just not feeling it" when you listen to Sondheim, it's your personal preference! I think people here, myself included, took offense to what you were arguing about him as a composer, but I'm glad we can peacefully agree to disagree on how his work affects us, while respecting each others' opinions!

[broadwayboy223]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:04pm

To say there isn't an emotional journey in Into the woods is completely ignorant of the work.

[South Florida]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:05pm

My favorite lyrics ever may come from Forum.

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:18pm

"To say there isn't an emotional journey in Into the woods is completely ignorant of the work."

And still there are many people who just can't feel it, like myself (a complete musical theatre and lyric fetishist, who appreciates all kinds of lyrics, the straight forward kind (Miss Saigon, Aida), the poetic kind (Phantom), the funny kind (Avenue Q, Book of Mormon). No matter how many times I listen to it, go to see the movie, trying to be emotionally engaged seems impossible to me. To me, it avoids the emotion and interest constantly, which is also quite the achievement. So many people, so many preferences.

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:24pm

I wouldn't call Phantom ' s lyrics "poetic."

[Showface]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:35pm

Wait--I'm sorry.

Is somebody trying to discredit Stephen Sondheim and insulting Into the Woods at the same time? Okay. That's ridiculous.

First of all...Sondheim's lyrics are complex and meaningful. They are more than just a collection of notes and words; they have a purpose that serves the character and the story. The music is the story in Sondheim's shows.


"Every song in Into the woods is a collection of forgettable random melodies, filled with 25 one-liners that say the same thing. So nothing has changed between sentence 1 and sentence 25. One big collection of beating around the bush."

Okay...so, "How can you know who you are till you know what you want" is the same as "Wishes come true, not free"

Okay. You try to make sense of that, because I surely can't.



Also, Sondheim being complex is not an opinion. It is a fact.

"Exactly, no emotional journey.

Random introductions on even more random melodies. "

There are SEVERAL emotional journeys throughout the entire show! Just like every "I wish" song, the prologue on Into the Woods sets up it's characters.







Some people...

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:36pm

What is a random melody?

[Showface]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:37pm

Who knows?

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:38pm

I feel like most people who use the word random these days have no idea what the word random means.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:44pm

Sung-though musicals are far more likely to put people off musicals than Sondheim, I would say, especially people who are disinclined to suspend their disbelief to begin with.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:45pm

Someone to hold you too close.
Someone to hurt you too deep.
Someone to sit in you chair,
To ruin your sleep,

Someone to need you too much.
Someone to know you too well.
Someone to pull you up short,
And put you through hell,

Someone you have to let in,
Someone whose feelings you spare,
Someone who, like it or not,
Will want you to share
A little, a lot.

Someone to crowd you with love.
Someone to force you to care.
Someone to make you come through,
Who'll always be there,
As frightened as you,
Of being alive,
Being alive.
Being alive.
Being alive!

Somebody hold me too close.
Somebody hurt me too deep.
Somebody sit in my chair,
And ruin my sleep,
And make me aware,
Of being alive.
Being alive.

Somebody need me too much.
Somebody know me too well.
Somebody pull me up short,
And put me through hell,
And give me support,
For being alive.
Make me alive.
Make me alive.

Make me confused.
Mock me with praise.
Let me be used.
Vary my days.

But alone,
Is alone,
Not alive.

Somebody crowd me with love.
Somebody force me to care.
Somebody let me come through,
I'll always be there,
As frightened as you,
To help us survive,
Being alive.
Being alive.
Being alive!


...that reads like an emotional journey to me...

[Dave19]

Posted: 3/22/15 at 5:47pm

"I wouldn't call Phantom ' s lyrics "poetic."

No? I do. Here are a few that come to mind:

With feasting and dancing and song, tonight in celebration,
We greet the victorious throng, returned to bring salvation

Silently the senses abandon the defenses...
Slowly, gently, night unfurls it's splendor

No thoughts within her head but thoughts of love, no dreams within her heart but dreams of love
I have brought you, that our passions may fuse and merge -
in your mind, you've already succumbed to me,
dropped all defences, completely succumbed to me
When will the blood begin to race?
The sleeping bud burst into bloom?
When will the flames at last consume us?

Let daylight dry your tears...
Say you love me every waking moment,
Turn my head with talk of summertime...

Flowers fade, the fruits of summer fade, they have their season, so do we...
Think of august when the trees were green, don't think about the things which might have been...

Updated On: 3/22/15 at 05:47 PM