I have a friend who hates Sondheim...

[backwoodsbarbie]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 9:38pm

So a friend of mine told me that she hates Sondheim because his music is "atonal," which I don't agree with. I'm trying to convince her to give his music a chance so I'm looking for some songs that would be good "starter songs" to ease her into his work.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 9:48pm

I can't even begin to make a suggestion for someone whose knowledge of music is so lacking that they would call Sondheim's music "atonal." It's not a question of your agreeing with her. Your friend clearly has no idea what atonality is. It's like saying that Sondheim is "Brazilian." I'm a musical idiot, and even I know it's just... false.

[backwoodsbarbie]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 9:56pm

^Good point, maybe I should let this one slide. When I heard her say "atonal" I should have known it was a lost cause.

[jv92]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 9:58pm

Has your friend actually ever head atonal music?

[backwoodsbarbie]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:03pm

^I highly doubt it. She is a dancer, not a musical person. I have a feeling that her musical theatre knowledge begins and ends with Hello Dolly so I was attempting to help her expand her horizons.

[darquegk]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:09pm

She obviously is using garbled technical language to indicate that his music is often discordant, unmelodic, clinical and cold. Granted, this is a stereotype of Sondheim's stuff, but it IS a view that many people hold, rightly or not.

[HummingAlong]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:27pm

So instead of jabs at your friend's musical knowledge or proclivities, I'd like to attempt to be of help to you. What about "I Feel Pretty" from West Side Story? (Okay, so this is kind of a cheat, because Bernstein did the music and Sondheim only did the lyrics, but maybe just to ease her in...)

I'd say "Ladies Who Lunch" from Company is also pretty mild in terms of expected chord progressions and such. It's definitely a diva song, but I think your friend might be able to appreciate it.

Hope that helps a bit! :)

[Pippin]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:35pm

I had a friend who Wasn't aware of Sondheim, but had heard some of his songs at a cabaret and really liked them. So, I made a "Sondheim For Beginners" cd for her, and these are the tracks I picked:


1. Another Hundred People - OBC
2. Pretty Women - Peobo Bryson Version (from "Color and Light: Jazz Sketches on Sondheim)
3. Ah! Paris/ Broadway Baby - Follies Concert
4. A Moment With you - Saturday night
5. The Little Things you Do Together - OBC
6. Marry Me A Little - Raul's Company
7. Anyone Can Whistle - Concert Version w/ Bernadette
8. I've Got You To Lean On - Anyone Can Whistle OBC
9. With So Little To Be Sure Of - Concert Version
10. Loving you (Duet with Nancy Wilson and Peabo Bryson from "Color and Light: Jazz Sketches on Sondheim)
11. Sorry-Grateful - OBC
12. Losing My Mind - Follies Concert
13. You Could Drive a Person Crazy - OBC
14. Johanna - Sweeney OBC
15. Too Many Mornings - Follies OBC
16. I'm Still Here - Follies OBC
17. Move On - OBC
18. No One Is Alone - OBC
19. The Ladies Who Lunch - OBC
20. Finale - Company OBC
21. Goodbye for Now - Liz Callaway from "Unsung Sondheim"
22. Our Time - Malcolm Gets New Recording.



She Loved it!

[darquegk]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:36pm

I would recommend "Not While I'm Around," "Send In The Clowns," "Being Alive" and "No One Is Alone" as four examples of Sondheim at his most melodic and accessible.

[morosco]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:37pm

How about having your friend watch the INTO THE WOODS dvd? I've turned several friends on to Sondheim by easing them in gently with that.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:40pm

Ease her into what?

She's obviously already heard the music, or did she just decide that she didn't like Sondheim from one or two songs?

She's a dancer. If she can't dance to it, then she won't like it.

[backwoodsbarbie]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:42pm

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, these are some great ideas.

And TheatreDiva, please don't stereotype dancers like that, I'm a dancer as well but I appreciate many types of music.

[chekkyjr]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:42pm

In his book, Sondheim calls himself out for the lyrics to "I Feel Pretty," which he says are way too Noel Coward-ly for a working class Puerto Rican girl. And I mean I get his point, but this is the one area in which I feel frustrated by Sondheim's book: Because of assumptions he makes about class and race. Okay, he calls himself "an upper middle class boy," and he's no doubt aware having - necessarily - a specific point of view from which he creates music for his characters, and we all have our limitations and our narrownesses, etc., and he's smarter than I am in any case, but still: Who's to say that "I feel charming/Oh so charming/It's alarming how charming I feel" is outside the range of a pretty working class Puerto Rican girl living in the West '60s in 1957?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:52pm

That's very nice list, Pippin.

But barbie--I think the only proper response to your friend who hates Sondheim is to say to her "I feel sorry for you. You're missing out on some of my favorite things in the world. If you ever stop hating, let me know and I'll share some of them with you."

If you try to change people, you'll only get into arguments. And one should only argue over Sondheim with other people who love Sondheim.

[musikman]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:53pm

an obvious example example of atonality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9umvR9_3peQ&feature=related


an obvious example of NON atonality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kMlQgyz834

Though I don't have his scores in front of me, I am 99.9% sure that every single thing Sondheim wrote for his musicals has a tonic/key, if not, at least a mode. Maybe some of his more "experimental" music he wrote for something like Pacific Overtures doesn't quite have an obvious tonal center, but they never last for very long.

The closest thing I can think of to atonality in Sondheim is the Letter scene in Sweeney. Even then, there is somewhat of a "tonic" established at the beginning and end of the song.

People often associate atonality with crunchy, ugly dissonant music. This is a gross misconception, so it's possible that's the only word she could think of at the moment. None of Sondheim's music is ugly or dissonant (all opinion I guess), but some may not view it as pleasantly as say, a beautiful Rodgers Waltz.

Updated On: 1/5/11 at 10:53 PM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 10:56pm

"How about having your friend watch the INTO THE WOODS dvd? I've turned several friends on to Sondheim by easing them in gently with that."

That's how it was with me. I'd heard some of Sondheim's stuff and had been immediately turned off by it. Yes, I found it "discordant, unmelodic, clinical and cold." Then on a whim I watched the INTO THE WOODS DVD (which my library happened to have) without realizing it was Sondheim and fell in love with the show on the first watch, as well as the score, mainly "The Prologue," "I Know Things Now," "Giants in the Sky," "On the Steps of the Palace," and "Stay with Me."

So, yes, I agree that INTO THE WOODS is a great introduction to Sondheim. I'm not crazy nuts about the guy like some slags on this site I could mention, but I respect the man's musical and especially lyrical talents, and three of his shows (including SWEENEY TODD and COMPANY) are among my all-time favorites.

But keep in mind, your friend is free to have her own opinion. If she doesn't care for Sondheim or finds him "atonal" (even after you get her to watch INTO THE WOODS) it's not the end of the world -- and it doesn't make her an "idiot" or "tone-deaf" for disliking his music. (No matter what those slags try to tell you.)

Updated On: 1/5/11 at 10:56 PM

[jdtp12]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 11:01pm

I would also recommend showing your friend the 80th Birthday Concert, that was my main first exposure to a variety of his music. I loved it, and it led me into looking into a lot of his other music.

[bwayfan7000]

Posted: 1/5/11 at 11:45pm

Maybe start with Gypsy to show your friend first what a wonderful lyricist he is, even if he/she dislikes his music.

[After Eight]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 12:06am

Even though your friend may not have used the word accurately, you know exactly what she meant by the term. So why bother trying to change her opinion at all, and just let her have her own point of view and let it go at that?
What she was trying to say has been voiced countless times by non Sondheim devotees, and every time, it seems, it provokes the same condescending or vituperative contumely. It's time for his fans to stop being so defensive about it, or hysterical. The critique recurs often enough that there has to be something to it, and though I like and admire some of his work, I see their point.

And on a broader perspective, what's the deal with trying to a change another person's opinion at all? Let everyone like or dislike what they will. It makes no difference anyway.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 12:09am

And TheatreDiva, please don't stereotype dancers like that, I'm a dancer as well but I appreciate many types of music.

She's stereotyping Sondheim's music, she shouldn't dish it out if she can't take it.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 12:12am

Oh, relax.

I didn't mean ALL dancers. Just the ones who think Sondheim is atonal.

[BroadwayNorth2]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 12:26am

A couple I'd add:

"Unworthy of your love" (Assassins)
"Take Me To The World" (Evening Primrose)
"Its Our Time" (Merrily)
Updated On: 1/6/11 at 12:26 AM

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 1:15am

What about just let her be and have her opinion?

[binau]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 2:09am

Because it is uninformed and she doesn't know what she is missing out on.

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 1/6/11 at 2:22am

A friend of mine wanted to take me to see a concert of Iron Maiden and he worships them, and I dislike their music. What is good for someone, might not be good for someone else. Let her be!