Clinton: Pledged Delegates up for Grabs

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Clinton: Pledged Delegates up for Grabs#1
Posted: 3/26/08 at 5:11pm
before we even get into this discussion, i am NOT starting this thread to bash clinton or be anti-hillary, even tho i'm sure many will say that was my intention. i would like to have a calm and civilized conversation with both clinton and obama supporters on what we all think about clinton's statements on pledged delegates:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/26/clinton.delegates/index.html

hopefully this discussion will remain clean.
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Technically, it is a true statement - delegates are not obligated to vote a certain way. Teddy Kennedy tried the same thing against Carter.

But, this is not the way to unify the party and win in November. And, though I am a Clinton supporter, I am growing more and more frustrated with her tactics and explanations.

Release your tax returns already.





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this could work in obama's favor as well.
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Not a great way to win over those Obama voters if she got the nomination.
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It's just the math.

Neither candidate will have 2,024 delegates.

The delegates will have to do what their job is in case no winning candidate emerges: broker the convention to choose the strongest possible candidate for the Democratic Party.

I hope it's Al Gore.

Delegates are only committed to vote for their candidate on the first ballot--and that "committment" is not iron clad.

Clinton is being demonized yet again for saying something that is in no way demonic.
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And Taryn--the relentless attacks by Obama and his surrogates on Hillary's character have resulted in yesterday's poll results saying that 28% of Hillary supporters would turn to McCain if Obama were the nominee.

Six months of painting her with a far worse brush than the Republicans ever used have embittered 28% of her supporters.

I blame Obama--and the media. Actually, I blame Obama's supporters. What happened to the "New Politics"?

Or does that hold only toward the Republicans he has vowed to appoint to Cabinet positions?
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God, yes, do we need Al Gore. Never have the words "inconvenient truth" been so ironically on point.

With Ms. Clinton's negative at 48 and positive at 37 -- about what, 5 points above W's? -- and Obama's church becoming the ball and chain that will drag him under until November, we need an Etch-a-sketch moment that allows us to erase everything and start the f--k over.
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It's not math. The problem is the math is not in her favor. It's desperation. The ONLY way she can win at this point is to manipulate the system and override the will of the people. Yes Obama needs super delegates to get up to the 2024 as well. But he can do so very easily, in line with the people's will, and without coersion or manipulation of the system.

And yes there are systems in place that allow that manipulation for valid reasons, like if Obama were so horrible that she needed to save the people from themselves. But using those systems just so you can win is wrong. That's what this is all about, not math. You can keep saying it but it doesn't make it true. What she want's is more important than what the people want.

And bottom line, it's not gonna happen. She's using this to cast doubt on the outcome and as an excuse to stay in the game in hopes that some disaster will befall Obama. But pledged delegates aren't just random people. They are chosen to become a particular candidate's delegate because of their own hardcore support for that candidate. These are not just ordinary supporters. They are extraordinary supporters who have to go through a big deal to become a particular candidate's delegate. I'd be surprised if she gets even one to switch.

But let's remember this when she (or her supporters) talks about disenfranchising FLA and MI voters because apparently, it's only disenfranchising if it hurts her:

- She'd be happy winning by super delegate, even if it went against the will of the people.
- She wants to use the electoral college as a measure of winning despite the fact that it has nothing to do with the nomination process, plus the fact that she denounced the electoral college process in 2000 saying I believe strongly that in a democracy, we should respect the will of the people and to me, that means its time to do away with the Electoral College and move to the popular election of our president.
- She wants to convince pledged delegates, who are MORALLY, but not legally pledged to vote in line with the will of the people who elected them, to change from the will of the people to vote for her.

It's not so much that Clinton is a monster, it's that she's hard core old school politics as usual. She may have the same policy stances as Obama, but if she becomes POTUS, her bulldog, manipulating, double-talking, maneuvering will keep us in the same standstill we've been in for years. And none of those policy stances will matter, because nothing will ever get done.

And PJ, that business about paint brushes and her polls is just laughable. Are you saying that the general public are that stupid to be so easily fooled into hating Clinton? Are you the only one that can see Obama's evil mind bending death rays?
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Updated On: 3/27/08 at 08:39 AM
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its kind of an interesting thing she's saying here... at first i was angry and frustrated with her, yet again, because to me it was just one of her latest (and boldest) attempts at grabbing the nomination.

but technically she is actually right. they arent really "pledged". we can thank ted kennedy for that. so to be fair, she makes a valid argument. and neither candidate can reach the magic number, so she's making bold statements here. i just think she needs to stick to her strengths and keeping pulling for the superdelegates which she's still leading with. at this point, to start pulling for pledged delegates would really hurt the party in my opinion.

but its definitely a really interesting argument shes making.

anyone else just want to have this whole damn election thing be over already?? i'm exhausted from it all.

the good news is, i was watching MSNBC last night, and for us obama supporters, it seems the pastor wright controversy didnt do much to hurt obamas campaign after he gave his great speech. polls showed he only dipped about 4 points.

and even better news, their polls still showed that clinton and obama would beat mccain by a very small and narrow margin, but they'd beat him!

we know polls dont mean anything, but i thought that was pretty cool.
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I'll be brutally honest, I'm disgusted with both of them.
....but the world goes 'round
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and in response to PJ, i really wish you'd get off it and realize that both candidates have been nasty to each other... you keep talking about how obama supporters have been so horrible, etc... what a crock. we've attacked clinton and her supporters, and clinton supporters have attacked us and obama just the same. all this talk from your side about how we're brainwashed, drinking kool-aid, stupid, naive and young... obama's far from being a saint, and he's attacked clinton with his fair share of nagative campaigning, but lets not pretend clinton didnt pull out the red phone ad, didnt release the obama photo of him in a "turban", didnt respond to the bosnia fiasco by slamming obama and bringing up the pastor wright situation... or didnt deny he was a muslim, "as far as she knew".

they both do it. everyones guilty. we need to unite.

atleast i can admit they've both played dirty. wake up and smell the sniper fire... get with the program.
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Amen, Cuban.
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It's desperation. The ONLY way she can win at this point is to manipulate the system and override the will of the people.

Pab--i will admit that both sides have campaigned negatively--THAT'S POLITICS!--but will you and Artscallion admit that Art's words above--"desperation" and "override the will of the people"--are ALSO true of both of them.

NEITHER ONE has the "will of the people." NEITHER ONE.

Only a "desperate" campaign would have its lawyers push to disenfranchise two states.

The ONLY way either of them can win at this point is in a brokered convention.
Updated On: 3/27/08 at 09:14 AM
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Pal, art is talking about pledged delegates, which Obama does have the majority of. its fair to say that he is ahead as far as "the peoples vote" goes.

and keep in mind that clinton signed off on michicagn and florida just like everyone else did... she agreed to the terms when they were set... she only cares now that she needs them to help close the gap between her and obama.

i personally think the DNC needed to figure it out and make sure those votes counted, but at the end of the day Michigan and Florida was not Clintons fault or Obamas fault. it was the states fault. they ****ed up.

so is obama wrong? yes. is clinton really fighting for MI and FL because she wants the "people to be heard"? hell no. she wants to win and catch up to him a little more.

its politics. i agree. its a mess... i just wish they'd ****ing team up, Obama / Clinton, and get this mess over with.
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Sorry, PJ. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. He does have the will of the people behind him. As CP said, he has more popular vote, more pledged delegates and more states, even IF you count FLA and MI. Sure if you count them it's a much closer race and the super delegates become more important. But just like you only need one delegate to win, you only need ONE popular vote to have "more." "More' indicates the will of the people. Right now he has 700,000 more.

And only a "smart", not "desperate", campaign would have their lawyers push to make sure any mid stream rule changes were fair. They only blocked the proposals they considered unfair. And again, as CPab said, it was the states themselves that decided not to pursue it. Everybody knew the rules going in and she didn't complain about them until she needed them changed in order to win. In fact, she signed in agreement that they wouldn't count. 48 other states managed to play by the rules. Fair or unfair, those are the rules ALL agreed to play by, including Hillary.

eta: MI and FLA signed their "will of the people" away, taking it out of the equation. And it seems unfair, to me, to fight to reverse that only when you need it to win.
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Updated On: 3/27/08 at 09:38 AM
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re: Clinton: Pledged Delegates up for Grabs#15
Posted: 3/27/08 at 10:11am
They will never team up. As someone said, we now seem to have 3 parties, 3 candidates.

There was a letter in the Times this morning that really frightened me. A woman from PA said "The primary means much more to me than the ultimate goal of electing a Democratic President..." HUH? More than electing a Democratic president?! So wait--this is a season of symbolic votes that become more meaningful than who we put in the White House?! This is yet more proof of how easily this party opts to shoot itself in the ass. We have ample evidence from the past that Democrats can destroy their chances all the way to the fall election.
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pssst, the bammy fans called the hil supporters fat. pass it on.
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He does have the will of the people behind him. As CP said, he has more popular vote, more pledged delegates and more states

Statements like that are just spin.

There are 10 states to go, there is no ultimate difference between pledged delegates and superdelegates, and there is absolutely no basis for the popular vote to exclude Michigan and Florida. Only the pledged delegate count can exclude them, due to Howard Dean's stupid gamble.

The popular vote does not figure into the party rules, so there is absolutely no reason for a popular vote count to exclude Florida and Michigan.
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re: Clinton: Pledged Delegates up for Grabs#18
Posted: 3/27/08 at 10:41am
that is truly frightening auggie.
Updated On: 3/27/08 at 10:41 AM
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Clinton: Pledged Delegates up for Grabs#19
Posted: 3/27/08 at 10:55am
"Statements like that are just spin."

It's only spin when you don't agree with it; it's point of view when you do.


"so there is absolutely no reason for a popular vote count to exclude Florida and Michigan."

Except that pesky signed agreement. And the fact that it's disingenuous to pick and choose which rules (or parts of rules) suit us and which don't towards an end of manipulating things to our advantage when it's clear we can't win any other way.
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Updated On: 3/27/08 at 10:55 AM
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c'mon, it's not like bammy needs those evil clinton supporters to back him. i think he'd be lessened as a candidate if he accepts any support from them. it's so same old politics and he has to be above that kind of thing if he wants to rule with divinity and justice for all. except whitey. kill whitey.
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The popular vote in Florida was 576,214 for Obama and 870,986 for Clinton.

The popular vote in Michigan was 238,168 for "Uncommitted" and 328,309 for Clinton.

BUT...Iowa, Nevada, Washington and Maine have not released popular vote totals.

So every time you hear someone talk about the "popular vote," they are only estimating those 4 states based on caucus results.

The system was never intended to use popular vote as a rubric. With a clear delegate winner, there would be no problem.Without a delegate winner, how do you define "popular vote"?
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"The system was never intended to use popular vote as a rubric."

Then why does Hillary say she can use it to persuade supers to switch to her side? Or ignore it if it doesn't fall on her side? Again, she walks on the side of the street that benefits her. And SHE's the one that brought "popular vote" into the conversation. So can we get her to give us an answer to your question, or will her answer depend on the moment in which you ask it?

There will be a clear delegate winner. The question is if someone keeps darting around trying to manipulate things in order to become that delegate winner, against those three standards, which Clinton herself brought into the picture, it can certainly carry. But the stink of it will make Mrs. Lovett's pie shop seem like a perfumerie.
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There will not be a clear delegate winner unless one or the other gets 2,204 votes.

And all your purple prose about parfumeries won't change that.
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"There will not be a clear delegate winner unless one or the other gets 2,204 votes."

Yes, that's the standard I was using. My prose was but a gift to you, intended to illuminate the facts, not twist them.
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