They Support the War, They Just Don't Want to Fight It.

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JustAGuy
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Check out this Vid.

"In conversations with at least twenty College Republicans about the war in Iraq, I listened as they lip-synched discredited cant about "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here." Many of the young GOP cadres I met described the so-called "war on terror" as nothing less than the cause of their time.

Yet when I asked these College Republicans why they were not participating in this historical cause, they immediately went into contortions. Asthma. Bad knees from playing catcher in high school. "Medical reasons." "It's not for me." These were some of the excuses College Republicans offered for why they could not fight them "over there." Like the current Republican leaders who skipped out on Vietnam, the GOP's next generation would rather cheerlead from the sidelines for the war in Iraq while other, less privileged young men and women fight and die.


CHICKEN HAWKS
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------ "I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
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mominator
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How many of those running for POTUS have children serving?
"All I ask of you is one thing: please don't be cynical. I hate cynicism -- it's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen." Conan O'Brien
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uh...let see...1, 2, 3... oh no that's wrong. Uh ...1, 2,...mmmmm nope. Uh, ... 1, hmmmm. I think McCain's son is in the Marines.


"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------ "I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 10:46 AM
DG
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Now, why isn't HD rushing in to comment on this thread like he does on all other political ones?
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He is too busy trying to impress SporkGoddess. But hey woman LOVE a man in uniform!
"All I ask of you is one thing: please don't be cynical. I hate cynicism -- it's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen." Conan O'Brien
gymdudeva
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...or scrifice *anything*. Ask them to forego even a teeny portion of their wealth or ration or sacrifice anything for this allegedly all-important "war", and you get equally nauseating spin.
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"Bad knees?" Honey, don't ask, don't tell. Or buy some pads.
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why aren't YOU fighting, JustAGuy?
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 12:00 PM
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How many reasons do you want Cruel? I can give you a **** load of them.

Beginning with I think it was an unjustified invasion of a sovereign nation, that was not an imminent threat to our National Security. I didn't support the war from the first day of the invasion and I don't support it now.

I'm also gay, which would bar me from service even if I were in full support and wanted to serve.

I'm also well beyond the age of enlistment and they wouldn't take me if I begged them too.

Now, why aren't you?
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------ "I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
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Here is a great response to the "Chicken Hawk" argument that I've found:

http://sistertoldjah.com/archives/2006/07/24/jeff-jacoby-on-the-chickenhawk-argument/

Another good one:

"The Chickenhawk argument goes something like this: anyone who favors military action should not be taken seriously unless they themselves are willing to go and do the actual fighting. This particular piece of work is an anti-war crowd attempt to silence the debate by ruling that the other side is out of bounds for the duration. Like all ad hominem attacks, (argumentum ad hominem means ďargument against the personĒ) it is an act of intellectual surrender. The person who employs an ad hominem attack is admitting they cannot win the debate on merit, and hope to chuck the entire thing out the window by attacking the messenger. This is a logical fallacy of the first order, because the messenger is not the message.

The messenger is not the message. Thatís all you need to throw away the entire Chickenhawk response. But why stop there when this one is so much fun?

If you ever see this charge again, you may want to reflect that personís own logical reasoning in the following fashion: You may not talk about education unless you are willing to become a teacher. You may not discuss poverty unless you yourself are willing to go and form a homeless shelter. How dare you criticize Congress unless you are willing to go out and get elected yourself? Your opinion on a National Health Care System is negated out of hand since you are unwilling to get a medical degree and open a clinic.

Using the internal reasoning behind the Chickenhawk argument means you cannot comment on, speak about or even hold an opinion on any subject that is not part of your paying day job. It is simple-minded and profoundly anti-democratic, which is why it so deeply appeals to those who sling it around the most.

But wait! Thereís more!

If you accept the Chickenhawk argument Ė that only those actually willing to go and fight have a legitimate opinion on the subject of war Ė then that means that any decision to go to war must rest exclusively in the hands of the military. Is that what this person really wants? To abandon civilian control of the military? Thatís the box they have trapped themselves in with this argument. Now to be perfectly honest, I think Robert Heinlein made a very compelling case for just this line of reasoning in Starship Troopers (the book, not the clueless projected travesty). Heinlein said that the only people who should be allowed to vote are those that have served in the military, since only they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of the state. I donít agree with that. I think civilian control of the military has been one of the pillars of our nationís success, and it has withstood the test of both World Wars and Civil ones. But that is the world you are stuck in when you toss that little Chickenhawk grenade."


Another great point I've seen made is that while not all pro-war people enlist themselves, we all have the utmost respect and regard for the troops. Supporting the war is just as important as fighting it; you cannot win a war without public support. Vietnam is proof of that.

Edit: Ah, the forums use HTML re: They  Support the War, They Just Don't Want to Fight It.

Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 01:23 PM
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But it's interesting, that none of those who were questioned offered any argument at all. Just excuses. And the questioner wasn't attacking them for their views on the war, he was simply asking them why if the supported the war why they weren't joining the military. Which is a legitimate question.
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------ "I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
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Oh no! She's cutting and pasting!!!
Art has a double face, of expression and illusion.
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It's fair to ask that, but the article itself and the replies to it seemed to indicate that anyone who supports the war should be in the military, i.e. the Chickenhawk argument. Which, as the excerpts I pasted point out, is full of logical holes.

artscallion: Why bother typing up something when so many people before me have written up good responses? Someone sent me to a website yesterday listing why Bush should be impeached and I didn't give them grief for it.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 01:33 PM
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I believe that the Chickenhawk Argument, though interesting in some ways, really isn't necessary. There are so many solid arguments against this war (and very few solid ones for it) that it's an unneccessary distraction from the real issues.

However, I can't fully agree with the idea that this is just like speaking out against poverty without opening a soup kitchen or speaking out for a national health system without working in the medical field. There's a far bigger price to pay. These young men and women are asking their peers...those their own age...to go fight and die in a war that they support from afar. The stakes are so very different.

And as for "Another great point I've seen made is that while not all pro-war people enlist themselves, we all have the utmost respect and regard for the troops. Supporting the war is just as important as fighting it; you cannot win a war without public support. Vietnam is proof of that."

That's just as intellectually void as the Chickenhawk Argument. Equating the troops with their assigned mission brings in the worst kind of moral relativism. It asserts that the troops are good, therefor their mission must be good, therefor the War in Iraq is on the same moral standing as World War II. Bogus conclusion and unworthy of any further attention or thought.
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"Another great point I've seen made is that while not all pro-war people enlist themselves, we all have the utmost respect and regard for the troops."

Does that infer that those who oppose the war do not?
"Just a Guy. Your feelings are touching. I am gladdened by the thought that you will one day wind up 6 feet under as we all do." - MrRoxy ------ "I do not suggest you walk out the door onto a New York street with your vulnerable child part exposed and not protected..." - Jason Bennett
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That's a good point, robbie. I defer to both yours and JustAGuy's posts. May I strike that comment from the record? re: They  Support the War, They Just Don't Want to Fight It.

But I do know a lot of people who believe that you can't support the troops and yet be against the war. It's an interesting viewpoint (not saying that I agree with it.)
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 02:05 PM
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Oh...I know people like that, too. My mother, for instance. I don't necessarily know if my mother supports the intention of the war...but she genuinely believes that if troops are put into action, you have to support the mission in order for it to go well.

I can completely understand that argument, but, again, I think it takes any responsibility and accountability away from those who created the war.
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Robbie nailed this one. At this point, it's yet another distraction. And it's built on an unseemly preoccupation with supposedly honorable death vs. dishonerable avoidance of service. Personally, I'm not interested in a kind of finger-wagging, revenge conscription -- seeing the sons and daughters of hawks start to perish in this debacle is just as wrong. Another single death of anyone's child in this pointless sacrifice is unnecessary.

Alas, while we await some proclamation from on high by Petreus in September, many, many more of our kids will die while the Iraqi Parliment and American congress take a month off. August will prove the cruelest month of all
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It's fascinating that a person who may not necessarily be for the war's cause believes that; the people I know who believe it are for the war.

Auggie: I don't agree with your politics, but very well-said.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
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Spork and the article she cites are engaging in a typically Republican attack tactic: Ignore the issue and attack some other random issue.

The "chicken-hawk syndrome" is about race and class. What is objectionable about the young Republicans in the original article is that they want the sons of poor people--black and white--to fight their war. Or they want mercenaries paid by Halliburton, which is worse.

This makes war too easy: If a nation can simply send Someone Else's Children to fight a war, it will be tempted to fight unnecessary, illegal and immoral wars, like this one is.
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"Stay the course" and "Defeat-o-crats" are just phrases made up by the Republican Noise Machine to frighten us into submission.

So I'm afraid is the "War on Terror" because the way the Bush administration has been conducting that war has only served to foment terror.

There is a real battle against terror to be fought, not by mercenary armies gouging the country for half-a-trillion dollars, but by a two front battle: (1) aiding law-enforcement authorities by supplying them with accurate and informed intelligence and (2) uniting the nations of the world to reduce the appeal of terror tactics worldwide.

Bush had the opportunity to unite the nations of the world on September 12...but he squandered it lying about Iraq.
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What's the issue? If someone is called a Chickenhawk, they are entitled to state what is wrong with that argument in itself.

There's nothing in the article that mentions poor minorities. That's an inference on your behalf. All different types of people enlist in the military, rich or poor.

PalJoey: Many of the "nations of the world" were personally benefitting from Saddam's regime, and opposed toppling him for that reason. And we had other nations supporting us, as well.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 02:58 PM
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Whats with the creepy comentary voice
and I did think that 'interpretive dance' thing was a little immature.
Updated On: 7/19/07 at 03:00 PM
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I don't support this war at all, but I have to say, even if I did, I could never fight. I greatly respect and admire those who do, but I could never.
I am a firm believer in serendipity- all the random pieces coming together in one wonderful moment, when suddenly you see what their purpose was all along.
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"And we had other nations supporting us, as well."

Poland?