Dreamgirls/Nine Tony's

[Ke3]

Posted: 1/24/21 at 7:25pm

I recently finished 'Razzle Dazzle' by Michael Riedel. He theorizes that part of the reason 'Nine' swept the Tony's over 'Dreamgirls' was due to a backlash against Michael Bennett's friends/producers, the Shubert Organization, because they supported tearing down the five theaters to build the Marquis.

I've also seen it put forth (mainly on this board) that it was due to a backlash against Bennett himself. This is usually implied to be because many people found him to be not a nice person. Is there any truth to either of these theories, or is it just the rumor mill that tends to start when something people expected to sweep the awards doesn't?

[ggersten]

Posted: 1/24/21 at 7:29pm

I saw Nine and Dreamgirls the same weekend - albeit in May or June 1983 - so not original casts. At the time, I recall enjoying Nine more than Dreamgirls. That said, because of Bennett's showmanship, it is the staging of Dreamgirls that I recall a whole lot more.

[Ravenclaw]

Posted: 1/24/21 at 9:13pm

Riedel said a similar thing about the 2013 Best Musical race--he claimed that the reason Matilda lost to Kinky Boots was backlash against the Royal Shakespeare Company. Both of these are possible, I suppose, but they ignore the fact that those were both incredibly tight races with two very strong contenders each. In 2013, the prevailing attitude was not that Matilda was the better show--if you asked people whether Matilda or Kinky Boots was better, you'd get a pretty even 50/50 split. I think most voters honestly vote for the show they think is better, and Michael Riedel can't fathom that other people have opinions that differ from his own, so he has to look for a narrative to explain why other people might disagree with him. Nine and Dreamgirls are both fantastic scores which had great performances and were staged brilliantly, but Nine has a more consistent book, so Nine would have gotten my vote in a very close race.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 1/25/21 at 8:09pm

I think the other thing that helped Nine was that Dreamgirls opened so much earlier in the season, Nine was sort of the "shiny new toy" that voters watched right at the end before they cast their votes.  Not to say that the hype for Dreamgirls had died down much, but it had still been so hyped since opening in December of that year and had been the "it" show for so long that Nine arriving was the next big thing and a bit of fresh air into the spring theatre season.  So with it fresh in their minds like that, I'd guess that likely influenced a lot of votes.  Also, Tommy Tune had still been relatively unrecognized from an awards standpoint in terms of his direction and choreography (he had won for Hollywood... already, but this was prior to My One and Only, Grand Hotel, Will Rogers, etc.) whereas Bennett had been recognized quite regularly by the Tonys.  So all that together added up to Nine having the momentum by Tony night.

Regarding Kinky and Matilda, I feel like 2013 was very much about Broadway "rewarding its own", meaning recognizing the artists who had been a regular part of the New York theatre community for quite some time (Tracy Letts winning over Tom Hanks, Jerry Mitchell over Chet Walker, etc.).  So a Cyndi Lauper-Harvey Fierstein musical winning over a big British import very much falls in line with that.  Not to mention, this was about 3 weeks before DOMA first being struck down and about 2 years before gay marriage was legalized, so the themes of Kinky Boots were at the extreme forefront, especially in New York at the time.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 1/26/21 at 12:27am

Both were truly great musicals, with very different but incredibly Imaginative staging, but IMO Nine had an equally incredible score, whereas Dreamgirls’ was serviceable with one great song (think Pippin vs. A Little Night Music Also). The point in the season was also a factor, as was the fact that Nine had even more show stopping numbers than Dreamgirls (which of course had one of the all-time great show-stopping numbers). The Tony’s essentially divided the baby in two, but Nine got the head.

[chewy5000]

Posted: 1/26/21 at 6:22am

The two shows pretty much split all the awards. Nine got score, direction, costumes and featured actress, while Dreamgirls got book, choreography, lighting and the other three acting categories. So the top prize really could have gone either way.

[joevitus]

Posted: 1/26/21 at 12:58pm

Broadway61004 said: "I think the other thing that helped Nine was that Dreamgirls opened so much earlier in the season, Nine was sort of the "shiny new toy" that voters watched right at the end before they cast their votes. Not to say that the hype for Dreamgirls had died down much, but it had still been so hyped since opening in December of that year and had been the "it" show for so long that Nine arriving was the next big thing and a bit of fresh air into the spring theatre season. So with it fresh in their minds like that, I'd guess that likely influenced a lot of votes. Also, Tommy Tune had still been relatively unrecognized from an awards standpoint in terms of his direction and choreography (he had won for Hollywood... already, but this was prior to My One and Only, Grand Hotel, Will Rogers, etc.) whereas Bennett had been recognized quite regularly by the Tonys. So all that together added up to Nine having the momentum by Tony night."

Really agree with this. I was young at the time, early teens, but I recall the big deal over Nine so well that I forgot for years Dreamgirls had opened the same year. When it arrived, there seemed to bee so much media coverage about it saving the idea that the musical was still a viable commercial form on Broadway. Which seems silly now, maybe seemed silly to older, more reasonable minds then. But the press was huge.

I only saw a bus-and-truck of the original Bennett staging and I've only seen the videotape of the Tune staging, but from the perspective of staging and text, I vastly prefer Nine. Doesn't mean I don't like Dreamgirls, but the latter strikes me as mostly fluff, whereas Nine hits on some deep issues. IMO.

[Owen22]

Posted: 1/26/21 at 2:18pm

"Nine" was as artsy as a new musical can get. A commercial musical. Plus it was very adult and very well written (I would have personally given the Best Book Tony to "Nine" that year).  As brilliantly staged as "Dreamgirls" was, it perfected the feel of a "cinematic" musical, it possibly felt like "Nine" was a step forward for the concept musical, the same way Bennett's "A Chorus Line" did six or seven years earlier. With some exceptions, the arty musical tends to win over the crowdpleaser.

[broadwaybabywannabe2]

Posted: 1/27/21 at 3:16pm

i too saw both NINE and DREAMGIRLS within the same year with original casts...i LOVED Dreamgirls...i hated Nine...being gay i think i was more into the Black divas thing, then i was the women-loving man in Nine...Dreamgirls was so brilliantly staged and it was very cinematic which i loved...Michael Bennet at his very best...Nine had way too many women in it wearing scantly nothings and that was not my interest...when saw the movie, and yes i know it was awful, it only reinforced my view of the stage show...

[Jarethan]

Posted: 1/27/21 at 4:08pm

broadwaybabywannabe2 said: "i too saw both NINE and DREAMGIRLS within the same year with original casts...i LOVED Dreamgirls...i hated Nine...being gay i think i was more into the Black divas thing, then i was the women-loving man in Nine...Dreamgirlswas so brilliantly staged and it was very cinematic which i loved...Michael Bennet at his very best...Nine had way too many women in it wearing scantly nothings and that was not my interest...when saw the movie, and yes i know it was awful,it only reinforced my view of the stage show..."

I think you are remembering the Nine costumes incorrectly.  The women in the case were all body types and wore first black and then white dresses; only Anita Morris had a ‘minimalistic’  outfit.  

[broadwaybabywannabe2]

Posted: 1/28/21 at 8:52am

Jarethan said: "broadwaybabywannabe2 said: "i too saw both NINE and DREAMGIRLS within the same year with original casts...i LOVED Dreamgirls...i hated Nine...being gay i think i was more into the Black divas thing, then i was the women-loving man in Nine...Dreamgirlswas so brilliantly staged and it was very cinematic which i loved...Michael Bennet at his very best...Nine had way too many women in it wearing scantly nothings and that was not my interest...when saw the movie, and yes i know it was awful,it only reinforced my view of the stage show..."

I think you are remembering the Nine costumes incorrectly. The women in the case were all body types and wore first black and then white dresses;only Anita Morris hada ‘minimalistic’ outfit."

thanks...it has been almost 40 years...i guess Anita's wardrobe made a lasting impression on me...lol