"Howard" on Disney Plus- Page 2

[DramaTeach]

Posted: 8/9/20 at 1:19pm

xtzg said: "2) Some years ago (I think in the 2000s or early 2010s) there was an article about Ashman, and the author, who interviewed his partner, wrote that he was living alone in that house. I don't know about now, but it's not something that the public needs to know. His partner did show up when Little Shop of Horrors opened off-broadway last year."

 

I totally agree that it's not something we're entitled to know. It's just something I was wondering as I watched. Hope he's happy after dealing with that tragedy.

[Kad]

Posted: 8/9/20 at 2:07pm

If anyone is interested, Ashman's sister, Sarah, runs the Howard Ashman website and has shared numerous stories of Howard, as well as interviews with figures and other anecdotes and miscellany from his life and career, on its blog. It paints a richer portrait of him, and is frequently very moving.

Howard Ashman Blog & News

[JennH]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 9:55am

Finally watched it last night...what a TREASURE this man was and this film is a treat. It's bad enough his life was cut so short, but it kills me that he didn't get to see the final product of his magnum opus that is B and the B, and what a staple it would become in the Disney canon. And when I sat down to think about it, it actually shocked me that Aladdin is as seamless as it is since Menken had to hunt for a new lyricist for the other songs Howard didn't write. Rice may not be known for his witticisms, but it worked. And frankly if I didn't already know who wrote the lyrics for which song, I wouldn't have been able to tell who wrote what or even that it was two lyricists. It's THAT seamless. 

And my lands, thank goodness that man put his foot down when the powers that be wanted to cut f-in part.of.your.world. This man not only knew how to write and use text cleverly, but knew story structure and how each song fits into the overall arc/narrative. This is sorely lacking in current musical theatre writing, and I just want to resurrect the man so he can teach this skill. I also have an alternate universe in my head where he's still alive and it was him and Menken who write for a Disney adaptation of the Snow Queen instead. And it was WAY better...I said what I said.

[Vespertine1228]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 11:14am

I thought this was a classic case of "Fascinating subject, not so great documentary."

I didn't care for not being able to see the person talking. It felt like watching a very well put together slideshow with narration. And the moments where you did see people talking in real time weren't very intentional and didn't really drive home the emotional impact of Ashman and his work. I want to see the most important people in his life like people like Menken, his widowed partner, Katzenburg, etc.

I'm glad I watched it, and it was a thrill to see all the BTS and early footage of the Disney classics, but it felt a lot like a Wikipedia entry to me.

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 11:23am

Just watched it yesterday and I’m still heartbroken.

Ditto with those lyrics on Gaston. My favorite is the internal rhyme in “As a specimen, yes I’m intimidating.”

That was the great thing about Howard. Sondheim always talked about not letting the Lyricist get in the way of the character. Ashman didn’t even have to try, they just came out of him effortlessly.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 11:40am

I'd love to see Smile at Encores!

[JennH]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 12:27pm

CATSNYrevival said: "I'd love to see Smile at Encores!"

THIS. And a cast recording of it! Since an OBC doesn't actually exist, which is crime... I still want an OBC just to hear Jodi sing Disneyland over and over again. 

[Kad]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 12:31pm

After they did Rosewater for Off-Center a few years ago, I’d be surprised if Smile wasn’t on their shortlist.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 12:40pm

Kad said: "After they did Rosewater for Off-Center a few years ago, I’d be surprised if Smile wasn’t on their shortlist."

I would have thought so but Rosewater was in 2016. They're taking their time with Smile.

[Kad]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 12:50pm

It's only been a few years and they only do a handful of shows a year, though.

[xtzg]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 3:22pm

JennH said: "And when I sat down to think about it, it actually shocked me that Aladdin is as seamless as it is since Menken had to hunt for a new lyricist for the othersongs Howard didn't write. Rice may not be known for his witticisms, but it worked. And frankly if I didn't already know who wrote the lyrics for which song, I wouldn't have been able to tell who wrote what or even that itwas two lyricists. It's THAT seamless.

And my lands, thank goodness that man put his foot down when the powers that be wanted to cut f-in part.of.your.world. This man not only knew how to write and use text cleverly, but knew story structure and how each song fitsinto the overall arc/narrative. This is sorely lacking in current musical theatre writing, and I just want to resurrect the man so he can teach this skill. I also have an alternate universe in my head where he's still alive and it was him and Menken who write for a Disney adaptation of theSnow Queen instead. And it was WAY better...I said what I said."

 

I also think Rice did really admirable work with Aladdin. He and Menken worked extremely effectively giving the circumstances. That said, weirdly I always felt there were more than one lyricist involved in Aladdin. If I try to rationalize it, I guess Ashman's work has a sense of sincerity and simplicity (even with all the wittiness) which to me is quite distinct. He was the master of writing with purpose and economy.

Ashman was adamant that they could not cut Part of the World, but it took more than one person to successfully keep that song. Glen Keane, the animator in charge of Ariel, also fought for the song, and eventually convinced Katzenberg to give it another chance.

[xtzg]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 3:41pm

CATSNYrevival said: "Kad said: "After they did Rosewater for Off-Center a few years ago, I’d be surprised if Smile wasn’t on their shortlist."

I would have thought so but Rosewater was in 2016. They're taking their time with Smile."

 

I remember reading that Hamlisch was sort of against Smile being revisited because he considered it a failure. Not sure where his estate stands now regarding something like an Encore production. I too hope it could happen, but I don't know if it is more complicated than, say, Rosewater which obviously is still something Menken thinks fondly about.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 3:59pm

I'm also curious what Ashman's Snow Queen was like.

[jv92]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 6:59pm

I remember reading that Hamlisch was sort ofagainst Smile being revisited because he considered it a failure. Not sure where his estate stands now regarding something like an Encore production. I too hope it could happen, but I don't know if it is more complicated than, say, Rosewater which obviously is still something Menken thinks fondly about."

Hamlisch was a glib, commercial success-obsessed hack whose music (or rather, muzak) has aged terribly. He treated Howard pretty dismissively, as the documentary shows. Had SMILE succeeded commercially, you can bet he'd have felt differently about the piece. He was all "Hollywood." Not an ounce of theatre in the man. The only reason to revive SMILE would be because the book and storytelling is actually really strong and swift and interesting. It's probably Hamlisch's best score, too, simply because the lyrics are of pretty high quality. 

ROSEWATER is actually quite a good show, and I think Menken and the Ashman estate had been trying to get a recording made for years. The Encores! production could spearhead that, and did. And thank goodness! 

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 7:24pm

Bravo to Don Hahn, the director and writer of ''Howard.'' As the Oscar-nominated producer of ''Beauty and the Beast,'' he surely knew his subject, and made such a touching tribute. In other hands, ''Howard'' could've been a more formulaic film full of celebrity talking heads and just concentrated on his Disney animated movies. But Hahn has dug up a lot of audiotapes of Ashman, often allowing him to tell his own story. Hahn also spends time showing how Ashman was a born storyteller as a boy and shares the highs (''Little Shop of Horrors'' ) and lows (''Smile'' ) of his life in the theater.

Plus, ''Howard'' is refreshingly forthright in depicting Ashman's story and struggles as a terrifically talented gay artist dealing with AIDS. It covers his relationship with Stuart White, his college boyfriend, and Bill Lauch, his surviving partner who movingly accepted Ashman's Oscar for ''Beauty and the Beast'' on his behalf. (Glad to see this LGBT story on Disney Plus, but it's puzzling why this channel couldn't also host ''Love, Victor,'' an acclaimed and clean-cut series about a gay teen; instead, Disney Plus shifted this ''Love, Simon'' spinoff to Hulu, where it became a hit and was just renewed.)

Updated On: 8/10/20 at 07:24 PM

[noradesmond]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 7:33pm

They DID record it. It's available for digital download on iTunes.

 

https://music.apple.com/us/album/kurt-vonneguts-god-bless-you-mr-rosewater-premiere/1256577240

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 9:14pm

It's a wonderful, wonderful documentary. I didn't mind that there weren't "talking heads" (that was Don Hahn's style for Waking Sleeping Beauty, too) but the stock b-roll footage REALLY annoyed me. But it still didn't take away from the beauty of his work.

[Kad]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 9:24pm

I did kind of have to roll my eyes at the clips of the live action remakes of Beauty of the Beast and Aladdin closing it out, which seemed like a Disney executive decision despite the existence of those remakes seeming like something Ashman would've fought against.

[jpbran]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 10:07pm

Regarding Love Victor, the Disney + “rules” clashed with that one due to some teen drinking, partying, etc. It’s one of their no-no’s supposedly. Didn’t stop a chunk of tiresome social media voices from calling for Disney’s head on a platter over perceived corporate homophobia and cowardice. (Yawn)

Updated On: 8/10/20 at 10:07 PM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 10:09pm

Disney owns Hulu so it's not like Disney dropped it. They just had to decide which of their streaming platforms would be best for the show.

[jpbran]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 10:11pm

Kad said: "I did kind of have to roll my eyes at the clips of the live action remakes of Beauty of the Beast and Aladdin closing it out, which seemed like a Disney executive decision despite the existence of those remakes seeming like something Ashman would've fought against."

Cringey to me too... Can’t imagine Ashman sitting in on the auto-tune sessions for poor Emma Watson’s vocals. Yikes. But, as a lot of the doc was about his lasting legacy, might have seemed off not at least mentioning something like the $1 billion+ grossing BatB remake. (Didn’t need to show so much though.)

Updated On: 8/11/20 at 10:11 PM

[xtzg]

Posted: 8/10/20 at 11:44pm

They seemed to have really made an effort to include clips of those live action remakes. The live action Aladdin came out a year after this documentary was screened at film festivals, so at the very least those Aladdin clips were added later. I understand that the remakes are testaments of Ashman's lasting legacy, whether we like them or not, so I'm not against the inclusion of those clips. That said, having the BatB remake being the very last shot of the documentary before the end credits kind of rub me in the wrong way. The 1991 Beauty and the Beast is one of the best animated features ever made, and Ashman contributed greatly to it near the end of his life under almost impossible circumstances. The greatest achievement of the live action remake was grossing over $1 billion.

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 8/11/20 at 12:19pm

I think I also learned Alan Menken is only as good as his lyricist.

It's so clear Howard Ashman ran the show in their partnership and for the better. 

As well as Howard Ashman was an ideas man like Walt Disney.

I am almost certain that one of the other great devastations of losing Howard is he could've SAVED sooo many of those weaker Disney Renaissance films that came out after Lion King.

Imagine his hand in Pocahontas, Hunchback, Hercules and Tarzan for example.

All charming but flawed Disney films that had strong potential to be as great as Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast.

 

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 8/11/20 at 1:18pm

It’s so touching in interviews to See Menken still mention and recognize Ashman’s impact on his work and career. We should all be so lucky to have friends who remember us so long after we pass.

[jv92]

Posted: 8/11/20 at 8:09pm

 "I think I also learned Alan Menken is only as good as his lyricist.

YEEES. I think the only person he's worked with that one could say matches Howard in terms of story and character and craft is Stephen Schwartz, and even he's no Ashman. 

Imagine his hand in Pocahontas, Hunchback, Hercules and Tarzan for example.

I often think about this. As much as I like the scores to POCAHONTAS and HUNCHBACK (I feel that Menken's strongest underscore is HUNCHBACK, and that he deserved a ninth Oscar for it), I think as animated family entertainments, they're mistakes. Yes, animation isn't just kiddie stuff-- certainly MERMAID and BEAUTY (or SNOW WHITE, PINOCCHIO, et al) aren't-- but there's a certainly levity and fantasy necessary for animation, and those elements tacked onto those respective stories aren't necessary. That's why I think HUNCHBACK works so much better as a stage piece-- without the cutesy gargoyles! So I wonder if Howard would have said, "Yeah, maybe Victor Hugo works for the stage in something like LES MISERABLES, but as an animated musical? Think it over guys."

I also think the corporate infighting and loss of Jeffery Katzenberg as an ally and someone to have good, strong creative arguments with would have pushed Howard (and more than likely Alan) to come back to the theatre and spend less time at Disney, and go back and forth between film and stage, as Stephen Schwartz has done pretty consistently, and as Menken started to do in the mid 2000s. 

But who knows? Maybe Howard would have become a Disney film executive? He certainly had influence and respect from the top brass. Roy E. Disney's comment is quite remarkable. It was remarkable to hear in WAKING SLEEPING BEAUTY, and it still is in this film. Maybe he would have thought HUNCHBACK was a great idea. Animation IS art. Walt Disney intended it to be-- which pissed a lot of pretentious people off (i.e. FANTASIA).

Certainly, we missed out on a special career, and a man who could nurture and mentor a new generation of artists. He seemed to have that pontifical gene in him, too. 

I think Menken gets purer when he talks about Howard. I think he sometimes can become glib "Alan Meken, the 8-time Oscar winner" in public forums, but not when he discusses Howard. Which is really, as stated, quite touching. He hasn't lost touch with his roots. 

"