Am I Racist for Liking "The King and I?"- Page 4
Am I Racist for Liking "The King and I?"
#76
Posted: 6/22/20 at 12:01pm
So, as we come full circle to the OP, who was afraid that she could be a bad person just due to her visceral gut reaction to the musical, not followed by any action on her part to even convert others to her view?
Label the behavior as racist or whatever else you please, but what was wrong with Anna, as the voice of British civilization, instructing the King that slavery was an abomination? Or that capital punishment and corporal punishment were being used with too much frequency and cruelty? Western civilization had only just rid itself of slavery, except in the United States, where the price being paid to end the institution was beyond anything that could have been imagined.
Anyone persuaded that Western Civilization was superior would have dropped that belief when fifty years later in the summer of 1914 a seemingly peaceful and prosperous Europe for no reason ever identified entered into a devastating war with devastating consequences.
I think of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962, in which by all recent accounts that I know of that funny little man Khrushchev blinked when he realized that a nuclear exchange was a genuine possibility. He made the needed concessions to Kennedy and in return suffered a loss of face and the loss of his job a year later.
In the summer of 1914 numerous individuals had that chance to blink, but none did.
I apologize for wandering off-topic above. I am the king of off-topic. The first two paragraphs raise an issue that I don't think has been discussed. What if colonization improves the life of the people. The British North American colonies gained a great deal from trade and protection of the mother country before it was ready to stand on its own. Even today our legal system bears much resemblance to the British legal system on which it was founded.
#77
Posted: 6/23/20 at 12:21am
OlBlueEyes said: "I may be 30 years or more since I last saw the film.
Deborah describes the scene.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-09-18-ca-2392-story.html
Here are 12 different takes on different "Shall We Dance" numbers.
https://www.broadwaybox.com/daily-scoop/12-versions-of-shall-we-dancefor-internationaldanceday/
The sharpestmoment in the film appears to me to be after thedance when Yul levels a steamygaze at Deborah and she looks back at him, panting. He approaches, hand extended.
In great contrast Kelli and Ken in London after the polka separate and they throw their heads back and laugh.
Lou Diamond Phillips looks absolutely goofy. Who did his choreography?
You're not predicting that there will never be another major Broadway revival of Show Boat and/or The King and I?
"
Was that last question directed at me? I make no such predictions. How would I know what some producer and/or director will decide is acceptable in some future season?
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.) Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)
A Director
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/18/07
#78
Posted: 6/23/20 at 1:48am
OlBlueEyes said: " What if colonization improves the life of the people. The British North American colonies gained a great deal from trade and protection of the mother country before it was ready to stand on its own. Even today our legal system bears much resemblance to the British legal system on which it was founded.
Oh dear! Blue, you have much to learn. Yes, white colonists gained a great deal from the mother country. The same can not be said for non-whites in this country. Do some research. I hope you aren't one of those who think slavery wasn't so bad after all.
"
A Director
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/18/07
#79
Posted: 6/23/20 at 1:56am
GavestonPS said: "
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.)Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)
Oh, dear! Before doing anymore work on the play, do some research. If the Indians, Black and Latino characters are three dimensional people; not worn-out tropes, there might not be a problem. As for who will play them, cast Indian, Latinx and Black actors. Saying you don't know any it not an excuse to not cast them.
"
#80
Posted: 6/23/20 at 2:38am
I still envy you.
No, there will be further revivals of these. But the next to revive Carousel (Carousel is revived, Carmen is part of the repertoire?) will have a heavy responsibility, as two consecutive flops may put the musical on the sidelines for decades..
Did you have a chance to see the LCT South Pacific live, or at least Live from Lincoln Center? (Lord, how did I end up here discussing this. Way off topic.) I'm always drawn to Brantley's quote, ("I know we're not supposed to expect perfection in this imperfect world, but I'm darned if I can find one serious flaw in this production."
Kelli O'Hara was ready for stardom. Bartlett Sher said he had no idea what to expect of the Brazilian opera singer Paulo Szot, but he gave him the best audition that he's ever experienced. I was not yet in the expensive habit of going back to see a show an additional two or three times, and I knew nothing of Laura Osnes, but seeing a bootleg clip of "Wonderful Guy' I think that she must have done a very creditable job, to keep the show running for over six months after Kelli left. She says that she was called back five times before she got the role during Kelli's maternity leave, with the last time reserved for scrutiny by the R&H daughters.With 996 performances plus previews, I think South Pacific will be back sooner rather than later, although Bartlett says that it is difficult to cast.
There is such an excess of talent in New York. I continue to believe that Broadway will decentralize. Following the examples of Chicago and Houston, other localities will mount their own productions using Broadway talent. I also believe that a milestone was quietly passed when the King and I London showed up so quickly on BroadwayHD and a competing Broadway source was announced..Broadway will quickly become entranced at the prospect of monetizing its principal assets: successful shows, instead of hiding them in the basement.
Finally, I believe that this is so rambling and so off-topic that you will not respond, which is perfectly understandable.
John Adams
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
#81
Posted: 6/23/20 at 8:38am
In reference to a suggestion regarding the use of a program note indicating that The King and I is a fictionalized tale that incorporates historical figures joevitus said:
"There is zero need to do anything of the kind. It isn't a history lesson. It's a musical about liberalism vs. conservatism in a "faraway land." No one had the intention of presenting either Anna Leonowens or King Mongkut accurately.
I suspect she'd be as offended by the insinuation that she might have had erotic feelings for him as the Thai people are over the dipiction of a beloved ruler. AND NONE OF THAT MATTERS."
I wouldn't say "zero need to do anything of the kind". Even within this thread, there's evidence that, in general, audience members are unaware of the differences between what is factual and what was fictionalized. The show paints the King as a fictional character pretty much the opposite of who he really was.
Since "no one had the intention of presenting either Anna Leonowens or King Mongkut accurately", I still believe it would be a responsible, and more importantly, a respectful act to include an acknowledgement stating so. To be clear though, I'm not saying has to.
I disagree that TK&I is "a musical about liberalism vs. conservatism". Both Anna and the King are on the same side regarding several liberal views in regards to change for Siam. The major conflict is more specifically in regards to misogyny vs respect for women as equals (or male dominance over females). Male ego vs Female intelligence. A battle of the sexes. The male is portrayed as "barbaric" and the females are portrayed as sensible, caring and intelligent. I think that in the 1950s, many women saw elements of their husbands in the King, and of themselves in Anna.
Methods for resolving the conflict(s) include the female manipulating the male into thinking her ideas are his, and temporarily demonstrating submissiveness as a way of 'losing the battle to win the war'. Evidence that the battle is won comes when the Prince (next generation male) issues his first proclamation; which is contrary to historical fact, but necessary for plot purposes of this show.
#82
Posted: 6/23/20 at 10:24am
Feel free to disagree, but it is. "Male ego vs. female intelligence" in and of itself is a form of liberalism vs. conservatives, as it is liberals of the era (19th century) who acknowledged women had intelligence on par with men, and male ego is a fairly common phenomenon among conservatives in all times. But all you have to do is look at where they stand in important: pro-freedom Anna and pro-slavery King. How this is achieved doesn't have a thing to do with whether their ideas are liberal or conservative.
#83
Posted: 6/23/20 at 1:50pm
Oh dear! Blue, you have much to learn. Yes, white colonists gained a great deal from the mother country. The same can not be saidfor non-whites in this country. Do someresearch. I hope youaren't one of those who think slavery wasn't so bad after all.
Calm down Director. I admit to your moral superiority. Feel better?
I really wasn't thinking about domestic affairs. The choice was whether the British retained the North American colonies and kept them under her protection, or whether they just left the colonies to fend for themselves.
The colonists in the north did very well in some ways under the British. Reading accounts of the Battle of Long Island, where the Brits forced Washington's army to retreat secretly back to Manhattan at night, The British and Prussians were extremely impressed with the bounty on Long Island. The fruit tree groves. The orderly farms. So much vacant land. The colonists were living much better than the average Brit.
As for slavery, you may be right that England got us hooked on slavery. But doesn't it seem possible if not likely that we would have had slavery absent the British? The number of slaves working on the sugar plantations of the West Indies dwarfed those of the American colonies, I'm pretty sure that the New England merchantmen would have wanted a position in the very lucrative slave trade and carrying slaves to the South to complete the triangle would have flowed normally. Can't say for sure. You may be right.
Molasses to rum to slaves
Who sail the ships back to Boston
Ladened with gold, see it gleam
Whose fortunes are made in the triangle trade
Hail slavery, the New England dream!
Mr. Adams, I give you a toast:
Hail Boston! Hail Charleston!
Who stinketh the most?
"
"
Lanie J
Chorus Member Joined: 11/27/19
#84
Posted: 6/23/20 at 4:29pm
Hi, everyone. OP here, and I want to say that I did not anticipate this many responses and this much intensity to my question. It makes me sad to see that people are getting in such heated arguments on a thread I started, and I apologize for the fact that people are fighting over a question I posed.
I also want to say that I have been trying my best to read every single response, although that task has been challenging, what with so many lengthy replies. Here is my takeaway from everything, and I thank everybody for giving me their two cents and helping to educate me.
My stance on TKAI is this; I will continue to like the show, and I can do so ethically as long as I acknowledge the problems instead of pretending they don't exist. I suppose we do this all the time with problematic media, such as Gone With the Wind, The Blind Side, and To Kill a Mockingbird. I also gather that I can use The King and I as a learning tool, not as a tool for the history of Thailand, but for the history of Asian representation in western media. Besides, I personally like the show for its music, not necessarily for its story and its themes.
As for hoping to play Anna, I am coming to terms with the fact that I probably never will, and that's okay. I will never be a professional Broadway actress, and there are many roles that I simply will never play. On the bright side, never getting to play Anna in full doesn't stop me from singing Hello, Young Lovers in concerts and cabarets.
Again, thank you so much for your help. We are all trying to do our part to keep beautiful scores from dying.
"See a picture of a woman wearing four years of confusion like a scar."
#85
Posted: 6/23/20 at 5:40pm
That's nicely put. You sound like a beautiful soul. I'm guessing you already know it, but if you don't, I recommend Masked: The Life of Anna Leonowens, Schoolmistress at the Court of Siam by Alfred Habegger. Lots of info about her real (as opposed to made up) life (including her invented surname) and the truth as opposed to the fiction of Siam and the reign of King Mongkut.
#86
Posted: 6/23/20 at 5:50pm
In my opinion, liking this show isn’t a problem. Yes, it’s dated and inaccurate, but there’s still a lot of great stuff to it as well, and that shouldn’t be ignored.
There are other shows that are definitely more problematic than The King and I, which at the very least is a well meaning story.
#87
Posted: 6/24/20 at 1:35am
A Director said: "GavestonPS said: "
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.)Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)
Oh, dear! Before doing anymore work on the play, do some research. If the Indians,Black and Latino characters are threedimensional people; not worn-out tropes, there might not be a problem. As for who willplay them, cast Indian, Latinx and Black actors. Saying you don't know any it not an excuse to not cast them.
"
"
What is your issue with me!? I've done years of research: the details I included in my brief summary might have been a hint to you if you weren't so determined to paint me as some sort of Neanderthal. (Oops! Current research suggests Neanderthals weren't as backwards as once supposed, and may have been the victims of genocide by Homo Sapiens. My bad!) As a matter of fact, the project is an opera; I don't know how many Native American opera singers there are in the world, nor how many will be available if, when and where the piece is performed.
Look at the differing views on THE KING AND I, which has the advantage of being a much beloved classic. Now imagine creating a new work that won't have that advantage and try predicting the discussion at "Liberal State" several years from now! Your assertion that acceptance of a work is simply a matter of "well-rounded characters" is belied by the fusses over TK&I, WSS, SHOW BOAT, EVITA and PORGY AND BESS. For some, the material won't matter as much as the categories into which the writers fall.
I spent five years in graduate school and a decade-and-a-half teaching at a well-known, liberal university. There is no issue of dramatic representation or the politics thereof that I haven't discussed and taught ad nauseam. So enough of your facile lectures! You should be able to better read your audience.
#88
Posted: 6/24/20 at 1:43am
Lanie J said: "Hi, everyone. OP here, and I want to say that I did not anticipate this many responses and this much intensity to my question. It makes me sad to see that people are getting in such heatedarguments on a thread I started, and I apologize for the fact that people are fighting over a question I posed...."
What a gracious, intelligent and generous post, Lanie! You owe nobody an apology, as far as I am concerned; we are all capable of generating these conflicts ourselves.
More importantly, your original post showed you know that what is put on stage MATTERS, and that's the most important thing someone your age can learn. All of us here agree or we wouldn't be arguing.
Well done!
Speed
Broadway Star Joined: 7/12/03
#89
Posted: 6/24/20 at 2:18am
Oscar Hammerstein III was a major force in the fight for civil rights. Remember he wrote "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught." You're probably racist (everyone's a little bit) but not because of The King & I.
#90
Posted: 6/24/20 at 3:27am
The major conflict is more specifically in regards to misogyny vs respect for women as equals (or male dominance over females). Male ego vs Female intelligence. A battle of the sexes. The male is portrayed as "barbaric" and the females are portrayed as sensible, caring and intelligent.
Misogyny is a powerful word to use. Those who proclaim to be most militant about hate crimes distribute lot of hatred themselves. Are all the king's wives downtrodden, disrespected, and disgraced, or are they among the most privileged in the kingdom?
As in the case of Shaw, apparent issues of gender are often issues of class. The top ten to twenty percent of the men in the kingdom have the wealth, the privilege and the respect. The lower classes of men have little "privilege "that women would covet.. They are laborers who pick up weapons in time of war and suffer harsh punishment, capital and corporal when they violate the law.
A Director
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/18/07
#91
Posted: 6/24/20 at 4:08am
GavestonPS said: "A Director said: "GavestonPS said: "
(I wish I had such a crystal ball. I'm working now on a play set in the Old West. How many Indians must I include? (And who will play them?) What about blacks (1 in 4 cowboys were African-American after the Civil War)? And Latinos? (Many Mexicans stayed when the Southwest went to the US after the war with Mexico.)Etc. and so forth. I REALLY wish I knew what some university student association is going to decree "acceptable"!)
Oh, dear! Before doing anymore work on the play, do some research. If the Indians,Black and Latino characters are threedimensional people; not worn-out tropes, there might not be a problem. As for who willplay them, cast Indian, Latinx and Black actors. Saying you don't know any it not an excuse to not cast them.
"
"
What is your issue with me!? I've done years of research: the details I included in my brief summary might have been a hint to you if you weren't so determined to paint me as some sort of Neanderthal. (Oops! Current research suggests Neanderthals weren't as backwards as once supposed, and may have been the victims of genocide by Homo Sapiens. My bad!) As a matter of fact, the project is an opera; I don't know how many Native American opera singers there are in the world, nor how many will be available if, when and where the piece is performed.
Look at the differing views on THE KING AND I, which has the advantage of being a much beloved classic. Now imagine creating a new work that won't have that advantage and try predicting the discussion at "LiberalState" several years from now! Your assertion that acceptance of a work is simply a matter of "well-rounded characters" is belied by the fusses over TK&I, WSS, SHOW BOAT,EVITA and PORGY AND BESS. For some, the material won't matter as much as the categories into which the writers fall.
I spent five years in graduate school and a decade-and-a-half teaching at a well-known, liberal university. There is no issue of dramatic representation or the politics thereofthat I haven't discussed and taught ad nauseam. So enough of your facile lectures! You should be able to better read your audience.
You said you were working on a play, so I took you at your word. Now, you say it's an opera. Which is it?
By the way, I'm not impressed when people wave around their Vita or name drop the famous people they've worked with.
"
bear88
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/26/16
#92
Posted: 6/24/20 at 4:28am
Lanie J said: "Hi, everyone. OP here, and I want to say that I did not anticipate this many responses and this much intensity to my question. It makes me sad to see that people are getting in such heatedarguments on a thread I started, and I apologize for the fact that people are fighting over a question I posed.
I also want to say that I have been trying my best to read every single response, although that task has been challenging, what with so many lengthy replies. Here is my takeaway from everything, and I thank everybody for giving me their two cents and helping to educate me.
My stance on TKAI is this; I will continue to like the show, and I can do so ethically as long as I acknowledge the problems instead of pretending they don't exist. I suppose we do this all the time with problematic media, such as Gone With the Wind, The Blind Side, and To Kill a Mockingbird. I also gather that I can use The King and I as a learning tool, not as a tool for the history of Thailand, but for the history of Asian representation in western media. Besides, I personally like the show for its music, not necessarily for its story and its themes.
As for hoping to play Anna, I am coming to terms with the fact that I probably never will, and that's okay. I will never be a professional Broadway actress, and there are many roles that I simply will never play. On the bright side, never getting to play Anna in full doesn't stop me from singing Hello, Young Lovers in concerts and cabarets.
Again, thank you so much for your help. We are all trying to do our part to keep beautiful scores from dying."
You seem mature beyond your years.
#93
Posted: 6/24/20 at 9:55pm
A Director said: "
You said you were working on a play, so I took you at your word. Now, you say it's an opera. Which is it?
By the way, I'm not impressed when people wave around their Vita or name drop the famous people they've worked with.
"
"
An opera is one form of musical play, one with very special requirements. I was trying to be brief and not hijack this thread into a discussion of my own projects. You knew nothing about my work except for the four or five sentences I included, yet you felt qualified to lecture me on how to write. Just as last week you felt qualified to accuse me of racist attitudes my post had already refuted. You are a careless reader and a lousy judge of character.
I did not present anyone with a C.V. I merely mentioned my experience in liberal spheres where the issues you parrot on a childish level are discussed to the nth degree! If I have mentioned celebrities with whom I've worked, it was only because it seemed germaine to the discussion. The vast majority of my years of work has NOT been in celebrity-driven theaters, nor have I ever claimed otherwise.
I'm not the only poster to whom you have condescended in this thread, I am merely among the most unlikely. You can skip my posts in the future, please. I am confident of my opinion that you are almost certainly a lousy director, lacking the observation and comprehension skills required to interpret a text with any degree of success.
#94
Posted: 6/25/20 at 4:42pm
I did not present anyone with a C.V. I merely mentioned my experience in liberal spheres where the issues you parrot on a childish level are discussed to the nth degree! If I have mentioned celebrities with whom I've worked, it was only because it seemed germaine to the discussion.
I see that you've had experience defending yourself. Is it not just New York where theater people are arrogant and disrespectful.
As for me, please go on dropping the names of celebrities you have worked with. It impresses me. You warned Yul that he should give up smoking.
There is an example of an orphan post, from a brand new poster so she could access everyone here.
Upbeat, Jazzy, Appropriate Musical Theatre Songs by Abby Greene.
Hello everybody! I am currently one the hunt for a musical theater song for a dance solo!
The only reason that this post did not sail off the page unacknowledged is because this thread's Lanie J., being apparently a sweet girl who did not understand the rules under which this board operates, responded.
Greeted Her.
#95
Posted: 6/25/20 at 5:38pm
Thanks, Blue. The sanctimony was just getting too thick in here.
As for name-dropping, I try to be very careful and precise about it. I only use first names if the celebrity in question TOLD me to call him or her by his/her first name. Otherwise, I use the last name, as with Mr. Brynner. And I am careful to distinguish between personal friends (almost none of mine are famous in any sense of the word) and celebrities I worked with, in most cases long ago.
I really have no idea what A Director was talking about on that score.
As for my so-called "CV", I would have put more effort into it if I were trying to impress.
***
This isn't specific just to the poster we are discussing, but I think social media in general has become that famous "liberal, circular firing squad" of which Obama once spoke. And this is dangerous in the face of the greatest threat to our republic since the Civil War.
Is Jill Stein running again? Because I have moments...
ETA because I omitted the key word.
Lanie J
Chorus Member Joined: 11/27/19
#96
Posted: 6/25/20 at 9:39pm
OlBlueEyes said: "There is an example of an orphan post, from a brand new poster so she could access everyone here.
Upbeat, Jazzy, Appropriate Musical Theatre Songsby Abby Greene.
Hello everybody! I am currently one the hunt for a musical theater song for a dance solo!
The only reason that this post did not sail off the page unacknowledged is because this thread's Lanie J., being apparently a sweet girl who did not understand the rules under which this board operates, responded.
Greeted Her."
With all respect. may I please ask what you meant by "who did not understand the rules under which this board operates," because I'm not quite sure what you mean. Did I do something wrong? If so, I apologize.
"See a picture of a woman wearing four years of confusion like a scar."
#97
Posted: 6/26/20 at 2:06am
GavestonPS said: "Thanks, Blue. The sanctimony was just getting too thick in here.
As for name-dropping, I try to be very careful and precise about it. I only use first names if the celebrity in question TOLD me to call him or her by his/her first name. Otherwise, I use the last name, as with Mr. Brynner. And I am careful to distinguish between personal friends (almost none of mine are famous in any sense of the word)and celebrities I worked with, in most cases long ago.
I really have no idea what A Director was talking about on that score.
As for my so-called "CV", I would have put more effort into it if I were trying to impress.
***
This isn't specific just to the poster we are discussing, but I think social media in general has become that famous "liberal firing squad" of which Obama once spoke. And this is dangerous in the face of the greatest threat to our republic since the Civil War.
Is Jill Stein running again? Because I have moments..."
Preach!
#98
Posted: 6/26/20 at 2:47am
Upbeat, Jazzy, Appropriate Musical Theatre Songsby Abby Greene.
Hello everybody! I am currently one the hunt for a musical theater song for a dance solo!
The only reason that this post did not sail off the page unacknowledged is because this thread's Lanie J., being apparently a sweet girl who did not understand the rules under which this board operates, responded.
Greeted Her."
With all respect. may I please ask what you meant by "who did not understand the rules under which this board operates," because I'm not quite sure what you mean. Did I do something wrong? If so, I apologize."
Oh, No. I'm terribly sorry for upsetting you. I was being sarcastic.
Abby Greene registered on this board just to ask a friendly question that someone might help her with. But nobody responded to her all day, even to say Hi, until you did it because you are a very nice person.
#99
Posted: 6/26/20 at 11:17pm
Lanie J said: "With all respect. may I please ask what you meant by "who did not understand the rules under which this board operates," because I'm not quite sure what you mean. Did I do something wrong? If so, I apologize."
Lanie, I know it's tough to jump in here. It's like choosing a table on your first day of high school and not knowing the "rules" of who can sit where.
But I want you to know that having chatted with OlBlueEyes for years, it was clear to me he meant "board rules" in a metaphorical sense; i.e., you didn't know the type of quarrel a simple, honest question might incite.
I feel sure everyone reading here knew he wasn't accusing you of violating the official Terms of Service. You are a lovely young woman--and a smart one--a true asset to this board. Keep asking your questions and don't worry about our shenanigans.
