Bizarre Acting Category Placements- Page 2

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 1/23/21 at 2:06pm

William Daniels actually refused his Featured/Supporting Actor nomination for 1776 on the grounds that John Adana is clearly the lead. That was actually what made the Tony committee start to be more flexible about categories in regards to billing.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 1/23/21 at 2:21pm

Nathan Lane in Angels in America. How is Roy Cohn a supporting actor? It seemed like a really obvious ploy to get both Andrew Garfield and Nathan Lane their Tony's.

[NameGreg]

Posted: 1/23/21 at 7:35pm

poisonivy2 said: "Nathan Lane in Angels in America. How is Roy Cohn a supporting actor? It seemed like a really obvious ploy to get both Andrew Garfield and Nathan Lane their Tony's."

Well I’d say while the other roles including Roy Cohn can go lead, as it is an ensemble piece, particularly in the first part, Prior Walter is still clearly the true lead of it, and it makes sense to only put him in lead.

To me, Prior Walter in lead and the Angel in supporting are the only placements that should always be set in stone, since he’s the main character and she’s by far the smallest role. I suppose it would also be a stretch to put Belize in lead as well, as he’s secondary to all his scene partners, but it’s still a very big role.

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 1/23/21 at 10:43pm

''Nathan Lane in Angels in America. How is Roy Cohn a supporting actor? It seemed like a really obvious ploy to get both Andrew Garfield and Nathan Lane their Tony's''

Interestingly, this is the reverse of the original Broadway production of ''Angels in America'' (1993 ). Rob Leibman won a Leading Actor Tony for playing Cohn, and Stephen Spinella won a Featured Actor Tony for playing Prior Walter..(Granted, this was based only on the first part: ''Millennium Approaches.'' )

Updated On: 1/23/21 at 10:43 PM

[NameGreg]

Posted: 1/23/21 at 10:46pm

Wayman_Wong said: "''Nathan Lane in Angels in America. How is Roy Cohn a supporting actor? It seemed like a really obvious ploy to get both Andrew Garfield and Nathan Lane their Tony's''

Interestingly, this is the reverse of the original Broadway production of ''Angels in America'' (1993 ). Rob Leibman won a Leading Actor Tony for playing Cohn, and Stephen Spinella won a Featured Actor Tony for playing Prior Walter.."

Though Spinella won as a lead for the second part.

And Jeffrey Wright won in featured for part two.

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 1/28/21 at 7:52pm

Jeremy Shamos got nominated for the Drama Desk for Best Featured Actor in a Play for If I Forget. If his character wasn't the lead, I don't know who was.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 11:23am

This is slightly off topic perhaps, but I also find it interesting how different mediums treat the categories.  For instance, Viola Davis winning lead at the Tonys for Fences and supporting at the Oscars; Bebe Neuwirth winning lead for Chicago at the Tonys and Catherine Zeta-Jones winning supporting at the Oscars; Brian F. O'Byrne being nominated for lead for Doubt at the Tonys and Philip Seymour Hoffman being nominated for supporting at the Oscars.  Yes, there's of course differences in adaptations that could impact the sizes of the roles, but those three roles really didn't change much at all from stage to screen.

Updated On: 1/29/21 at 11:23 AM

[JBroadway]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 11:39am

Broadway61004 said: "This is slightly off topic perhaps, but I also find it interesting how different mediums treat the categories. For instance, Viola Davis winning lead at the Tonys for Fences and supporting at the Oscars; Bebe Neuwirth winning lead for Chicago at the Tonys and Catherine Zeta-Jones winning supporting at the Oscars; Brian F. O'Byrne being nominated for lead for Doubt at the Tonys and Philip Seymour Hoffman being nominated for supporting at the Oscars. Yes, there's of course differences in adaptations that could impact the sizes of the roles, but those three roles really didn't change much at all from stage to screen."

 

It's interesting how all 3 examples you mentioned are roles going from Lead to Supporting. I wonder if it has to do with the nature of the camera vs stage: the camera can place one person at the center of a story even more firmly than the stage can, because it can follow specific actors and force the audience to see from their point of view. And by extension, other characters can feel more supporting if we're not seeing things from their vantage point.

Whereas in theatre, you just have human bodies onstage, and the only view is from the audience. The playwright and director can manipulate the size of a role with lines and stage-time, but if two roles have roughly equal lines + stage time, it can be easier in theatre to say that they are both leads. Because they are just two people existing in the same space, and they don't disappear when the other person is speaking. 

[NameGreg]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 12:06pm

Broadway61004 said: "This is slightly off topic perhaps, but I also find it interesting how different mediums treat the categories. For instance, Viola Davis winning lead at the Tonys for Fences and supporting at the Oscars; Bebe Neuwirth winning lead for Chicago at the Tonys and Catherine Zeta-Jones winning supporting at the Oscars; Brian F. O'Byrne being nominated for lead for Doubt at the Tonys and Philip Seymour Hoffman being nominated for supporting at the Oscars. Yes, there's of course differences in adaptations that could impact the sizes of the roles, but those three roles really didn't change much at all from stage to screen."

I don’t know if anyone can back this up, but I seem to recall that Viola Davis straight up said she only went supporting for the film because it would make winning easier.
Which isn’t really a surprise, that’s the basic reason why any leading role is submitted in supporting, it’s just that most actors who go this way don’t acknowledge that they’re in the wrong category.

[joevitus]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 12:06pm

Good argument, but I also wonder if the whole Hollywood nomination system more political and strategic? I guess my default example is Zanuck trying to get Anne Baxter to accept a supporting actress nomination for All About Eve, so that she and Davis in competition wouldn't keep both of them from winning Baxter, of course, refused, and neither of them won. 

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 12:07pm

JBroadway said: "Whereas in theatre, you just have human bodies onstage, and the only view is from the audience.The playwright and director can manipulate the size of a role with lines and stage-time,but if two roles have roughly equal lines + stage time, it can be easier in theatre to say that they are both leads. Because they are just two people existing in the same space, and they don't disappear when the other person is speaking."

That's a really good point about camera angles, etc. changing how roles can be viewed.  I also feel that generally speaking film producers are much more into examining the competition in the categories and petitioning to have their actors considered in them based on where they see them having the better shot (or in the case of Chicago, where they had Renee Zellweger in lead, since they could sort of justify Zeta-Jones being supporting they went with it so they both had a shot).  I actually wonder had Hamilton been eligible for the Oscars if they would have tried to push for Leslie Odom Jr. in supporting.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 12:31pm

Since the past 3 posters have all brought up the strategy/competition angle:

 Yes, I agree this is also a major factor - as I did mention in my other post from last week (further up this page). I refrained from mentioning it in my most recent post because I didn't have a good enough idea of what the competition was actually like in those years to make this case - except for 2017 (with Fences). And the strange thing about Fences in 2017, is that the Best Actress category was not actually very strong, IIRC. Emma Stone was the frontrunner the whole time, but kind of by default. For the record, I like Emma Stone, and I liked her performance in La La Land, and I think most people did too. But in terms of her buzz, and the nature of the role, and the nature of the competition, I think Viola Davis could have easily beaten Emma Stone in the Leading category. 

But anyway, more generally speaking: I don't know if I agree that film producers are any more strategic about their category placements than theatre producers are. Seems to me that it's the same game played on two different courts. In terms of strategy/competition, I think the main difference isn't the industry, it's the different pools. Viola Davis was competing against different people in 2010 Tonys than she was at the 2017 Oscars, so the landscape of the competition would have been totally different, which might account for the different placement. 

The only reasons I can think of why film producers might be more inclined toward strategic category fraud are: (1) the fact that the Oscar contenders have to fight harder for attention, because there are hundreds of eligible films, while the Tonys only have to worry about 5-10 other shows. (2) The fact that the Oscars don't have official rulings on actor placements: it's based entirely on the campaign, and how each member ultimately ends up voting.

I don't necessarily know how or why these would impact their tendency to be more strategic than Broadway producers, but seems like they could be the variables? 

Updated On: 1/29/21 at 12:31 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 12:58pm

Sorry, had only read your last post and not followed the thread. Didn't realize you'd already mentioned it.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 3:47pm

Blair Brown winning best featured actress for COPENHAGEN, an intense actor-driven three character play with all three continually on stage for the length of the play and she the only woman.  

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 1/29/21 at 7:13pm

Yes, but the character of Margarethe in Copenhagen, despite being onstage the whole time, spends much of the play “observing.” Bohr and Heisenberg have a lot more lines.

I’d argue that Rose in Fences is essentially a supporting role. It’s kind of like Death of Salesman in that Troy is the main character and she’s the long-suffering wife.