Young Judy or Old Judy?

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Young Judy or Old Judy?#1
Posted: 2/18/08 at 8:46pm
whom do you prefer?

I gotta go with old Judy. She shows so much life experience and puts so much into her work.



edit: updated per request of PalJoey.
"I'm an American, Damnit!!! And if it's three things I don't believe in, it's quitting and math."
Updated On: 2/18/08 at 08:46 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#2
Posted: 2/18/08 at 8:56pm
My favorite is actually middle Judy--from the Carnegie Hall tour to the end of the television show.

re: Young Judy or Old Judy?
Updated On: 2/18/08 at 08:56 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#2
Posted: 2/18/08 at 8:58pm
awww, come on PJ I use the term crazy out of love. I love her for her talent, and her stage persona, which, you have to admit, is a little "induced"

no harm intended. I love you.
"I'm an American, Damnit!!! And if it's three things I don't believe in, it's quitting and math."
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#3
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:03pm
I completely disagree, PJ.

I've posted this on BWW before, but I understand the question completely, and my answer has changed over the years.

When I was an adolescent, I loved "young Judy." She had so much talent and charisma. She was fresh and new. She had the whole world in front of her, and it showed from the sparkle in her eyes. She was "hope" to me. I couldn't relate AT ALL to the older, faltering, "druggy" Judy.

Yes, DRUGGY. She slurred her words beyond recognition. She even forgot them, at times.

She was feeble. She struggled to hit some of the notes, to get to the end of each song. She could belt it out there, but she was seriously DISTURBING to me. Not entertaining in the LEAST. A lame duck.

As I got older, I began to understand "older Judy." I began to appreciate her... to CELEBRATE her, even.

She defied the odds. She had a rough, horrible life off-stage, but she could square off and belt one to the rafters, when she felt like it. She was beat-up by life. So was I (thankfully, not to that extreme). I found I was rooting for her to "get there." To succeed. To "kill the people" with her talent and her incredible voice.

I like "old Judy" now, better than "young Judy."

But it took a lot of personal history to get me there.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#4
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:05pm
thank you, B12. you said that with more tact and specificity than I ever could.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#5
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:06pm
What are the criteria you're using for 'young' and 'old'? I don't think her career is divided that neatly.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#6
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:08pm
And I'm fascinated by Baby Gumm--the pre-MGM Judy.

re: Young Judy or Old Judy?

There are snippets of film out there--things like the Gumm Sisters doing "La Cucaracha"--and even then you can see she's larger than life.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#7
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:09pm
Young, but then she's great later when Liza got there for the "potential" aspect....

It may be blasphemy, but I think I prefer Isabel Keating's version of her to the real thing....but not Adrienne Barbeau's.

The young "Judy" of ME AND MY SHADOWS on TV was pretty captivating as well, though.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#8
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:09pm
ok, let's say young is the MGM, Frances Gumm years through "meet me in St. Louis" in '44.

Older Judy would be starting with "A Star is Born", in'54 and goes from there.
"I'm an American, Damnit!!! And if it's three things I don't believe in, it's quitting and math."
Updated On: 2/18/08 at 09:09 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#9
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:09pm
For me, it's the MGM Years, and the Post-MGM-Years.

Although, I agree the transition was gradual.

She died when she was 47, ultimately. She looked 75.

So "old" for her was 34.


EDIT: Exactly, Pippin. You and I agree fully.
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Updated On: 2/18/08 at 09:09 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#10
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:10pm
How about somewhere in between.

The young MGM Judy had her charms and talent, for sure, but it always felt like she was being held back from her potential in order to suit the sweet, plaintive, wholesomeness of the studio product. Still a rarefied gem though.
re: Young Judy or Old Judy?

The old crazy woman in a silk chicken suit on Mickey Dean's arm wasn't any better. I think there definitely came a point where it was painful to watch her perform. Even though her TV series contains some of her most stunningly brilliant performances, it was really the beginning of the end for her. She was only 47 here, the year she died.
re: Young Judy or Old Judy?

Give me the Star is Born, Carnegie Hall, Judy at the Palace Judy any day. I also call this picture, "PalJoey in drag."

re: Young Judy or Old Judy?
Art has a double face, of expression and illusion.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#11
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:10pm
Like the close-up she gets at 0:42 in this snippet from "The Land of Let's Pretend" from the 1930 Bubbles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxDjHVErJ9o
Updated On: 2/18/08 at 09:10 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#12
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:13pm
oh yeah, Judy Davis does a great job in SHADOWS as well...those "essential" Judy's, with less humanistic personality disorders (but still not the idealized screen personas either) are really compelling. The real life ones are just heartbreaking to me.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#13
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:14pm
PalJoey in drag would NOT be as pretty.

But Gene and Judy made a sexy duo.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#14
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:16pm
Has anybody seen the outtakes on the Judy show DVD's? It's the one where she is dressed up like a clown, and doing an interpretive dance to a song, but she just can't get it right. She tries and tries, take after take, but cannot do it.

It's one of the saddest things I've ever seen in my life.
"I'm an American, Damnit!!! And if it's three things I don't believe in, it's quitting and math."
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#15
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:17pm
This is my favorite from the TV series--Vincent Youman's "Through the Years."

A gorgeous song to begin with, but in Judy's hands, it becomes the equivalent of a Schubert or Schumann art song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwVCRqAq1Ao
Updated On: 2/19/08 at 09:17 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#16
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:17pm
Yeah, even in THE PIRATE. As much as I love Astaire, I'd kill to see outtakes from EASTER PARADE with Kelly instead. That movie with him is one of my favorite daydreams....I even like SUMMER STOCK, God help me.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#17
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:18pm
I prefer my Judy 'Norned'

re: Young Judy or Old Judy?
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post. <<>> -whatever2
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#18
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:22pm
re: Young Judy or Old Judy?

Old Judy?

HUSSY POWER! ------ HUSSY POWER!
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#19
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:22pm
hilarious, DAME!
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#20
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:23pm
re: Young Judy or Old Judy?

Or recently YOUNG again Judy?

HUSSY POWER! ------ HUSSY POWER!
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#21
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:24pm
mmousefan---There are no outtakes from Easter Parade with Gene. Kelly broke his leg prior to filming and Astaire was "begged" out of retirement to step into the part.

No film was shot with Kelly in "Easter Parade."
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#22
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:25pm
Naw, the judge is cranky.
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>> I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post. <<>> -whatever2
Updated On: 2/18/08 at 09:25 PM
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#23
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:25pm
Besty--I can confront and embrace older Judy--I adore this performance of "I'd Like to Hate Myself in the Morning" from one of her 1968 Merv Griffin appearnaces, even though she forgets the lyrics and makes the band start all over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZEWw0dR7rk

I just get defensive when older Judy is treated as a joke, which is what I mistakenly thought Pippin was doing at first.

This clip mixes audio only clips with silent footage.
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re: Young Judy or Old Judy?#24
Posted: 2/18/08 at 9:26pm
that's a shame. I knew he dropped out before actual filming, but thought maybe there was some rehearsal footage or something. They showed a lot of stuff like that in the various THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT film compilations, and vintage stuff resurfaces all the time.
just keep swimming along, don't rise to the....