How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
#1How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:41am
Listening to CAROLINE, OR CHANGE I keep wondering how this show didn't get more recognition during its original run (it's great to see that in London it got the accolades it deserved on Broadway).
One of the main reasons I can think of is that the main character, Caroline Thibodeaux is not exactly likable in the most accessible way. She's bitter, mean, and incredibly sad. Though she loves Noah she still acts rather harshly when she is around him ("How come you like me, I'm never nice to you?), she snaps at poor Dotty--one of my favorite characters in the show--because she has a boyfriend and drinks (though she's mostly resentful that Dotty has "changed"), she has a very rough relationship with Rose, and the last straw is when she tells Noah that all Jews go to hell.
I find her to be one of the most complex, exciting, and powerful characters in musical theater, but I can't help but think that the fact Kushner and Tesori put a woman who is somewhat difficult to like at the center of their show hurt its chances of commercial/critical success. I was wondering how do the people who have seen the show or listened to the cast recording feel about this particular character?
"Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room, that's perfect for some people of one hundred and five. But I at least gotta try, when I think of all the sights that I gotta see, all the places I gotta play, all the things that I gotta be at"
#2re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:44am
I love Caroline, but she constantly breaks my heart (especially with Dotty and Rose).
That's probably the best way I can put it.
"Picture "The View," with the wisecracking, sympathetic sweethearts of that ABC television show replaced by a panel of embittered, suffering or enraged Arab women" -the Times review of Black Eyed
CurtainPullDowner
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/4/04
#2re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:53am
She can iron my shorts anytime.
What a deep well written emotional confusing character.
#3re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:55am
maybe it's:
"I love Caroline, but I pity her"
that does sound a bit too... something. it's not right.
i can't put into words my thoughts.
"Picture "The View," with the wisecracking, sympathetic sweethearts of that ABC television show replaced by a panel of embittered, suffering or enraged Arab women" -the Times review of Black Eyed
#4re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:56amThere is something about this show that has touched from the first time that heard it and I had oppertunity to see it 3 times while it was in Philly. I think that the show takes less is more to an extreme that is hardly ever seen in theater, because the show is basically about a $20 bill, yet it is so deep and so complex that just leaves me with chills.
#5re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:59am
I certainly don't think that the character of Caroline Thibodeaux is the reason that the show failed.
I think that Caroline is one of the strongest and most tragic female characters written for the stage. I would put that character above Mamma Rose, Maria Rainer, Mrs. Lovett and all the others.
#6re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:07am
Oh, I agree that Caroline is right up there with Momma Rose. I don't mean that she is the reason the show failed but that perhaps audiences were not ready to flock see a show where the authors never spoon-fed the emotional woes of Caroline, she is not likable from the get-go, as an audience member I believe you have to come to understand her and during "Lot's Wife" you truly realize what this woman's torment is like. I think Tesori and Kushner's work in this show is brilliant.
I love Caroline as well but the way she treats Dotty upsets me though it makes her character all the more interesting. Dotty has basically done all Caroline wishes she could do. When Caroline tells Dotty that she can't quit because then her children would have to "beg for their feed," it's such a heart-breaking moment because she truly can't be a part of this "change" going on. I think Caroline also knows that Emmie admires Dot for going to school and that may offend her.
"Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room, that's perfect for some people of one hundred and five. But I at least gotta try, when I think of all the sights that I gotta see, all the places I gotta play, all the things that I gotta be at"
#7re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:12am
I think she's a really well written character, but I could undertand how her harshness could make it harder to get into the story and like that character.
I know someone who saw the show and said they liked the show but they found her hard to like and kind of cranky, which I could understand.
RentBoy86
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/15/05
#8re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:43amI can see where you're coming from, but I can side with her too. She's living in this world that's full of change, and she's static. She doesn't know what to do with it, and she's trying to hold onto tradition. I can see some of my parents' traits in the character. They're deeply rooted in "small-town" traditions, and they don't do well when things are thrown off balance. I'm actually suprised that they didn't have at least one moment in the show where she broke a smile, or something, but I think the fact that she gives Noah a cigarette sort of shows her longing to have someone around.
#9re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:50amI don't think that the writers wanted us to sympathize with Caroline. If they did the wouldn't have made it so that we sympathize with every other character. In a traditional musical you really connect to the main character and the supporting characters not as much. In Caroline, Or Change it is written so that the audience really connects and feels the most for Dotty, Emmie, Noah, and Rose. Caroline is not a character that the audience is rooting for. She is hard to like, she is tough, she is cold and mean but she really is a hero in her own way.
RentBoy86
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/15/05
#10re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 2:08amI think that's true, and like you said, she is a hero. She stands firm for what she believes and doesn't falter. There is something to be said for that.
#11re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 8:21am
The show was brilliant- 'Nuff said.
Amazing cast... amazing score... !
#12re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 8:55am
Caroline is emotionally complex, and is not an "instantly likable" character, and I know what you're getting at, Ray. The same could be said of Little Edie Beale in Grey Gardens... and look what happened to that show, too.
I wonder what would happen if "Carousel" opened today. Aside from the music, the subject matter and the main character of Billy would turn people completely off. I don't think it would be the smash hit that it was in the '40s.
I think it would draw Caroline or Grey Gardens-sized audiences, but not be a "blockbuster" classic adored by all.
Audiences were more mature back then, and able to deal with adult emotions, and complex human issues. They didn't need everything instantly accessible or "easy to swallow." Pal Joey would be another show that I think would turn people off, if it wasn't already branded as a "classic." If it opened fresh today, people would think he was a huge jerk and a user... and it would affect the popularity of the show, rather than having audiences flock to it, to find out what makes somebody like that "tick."
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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#13re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 10:14am
I lovelovelove Caroline. The fact she's not so likeable is what draws me to her. "And Hell's where Jews go when they die" nearly had me on the floor with laughter (Tonya's delivery was killer), and so what she's mean to Noah? I'm mean to my eight year old niece, I call her all sorts of names, but we're still best friends. Obviously Caroline is far more complex than I am (I'm outwardly mean because I feel vulnerable if I'm outwardly nice, whereas Caroline has been growing up oppressed since forever and is now watching things start to change, but not in time for her) but I can still relate to her enough to really like her.
#14re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 10:59amAlso, the audience is really never given the emotional truth from Caroline until Lot's Wife all the way in the second act, which can turn some people off.
kellybean2
Stand-by Joined: 8/5/07
#15re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 11:10am
But Little Edie is very likable - a good portion of the second act is full of laughs provided by her character. I don't see the comparison.
Caroline is difficult to like on the surface, but it's not difficult to see someone with her life ending up bitter. Her job, dealing with clueless wealthy people for whom she toils very hard on a daily basis for very little money, is where she spends the majority of her time. You'd have to be a special person to say happy and cheerful under those circumstances.
husk_charmer
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/19/06
#16re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 11:16am
I think there are two things that really contributed to the downfall of the show here:
1) As best12 pointed out, audience aren't *that* mature anymore. They want spectacle, not substance.
2) Look at the season it opened. It was up against "Boy From Oz," "Avenue Q" and "Wicked." It didn't stand a chance. A season later, it might have faired quite nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/huskcharmer
#17re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 11:25am
Best12, I think that it's difficult to compare Little Edie to Caroline in terms of audience likability, because Little Edie opens Act II with what is essentially a comedy routine. She draws the audience in with "Revolutionary Costume" and has them in the palm of her hand until the end of the show. Caroline has no such moment where she is easy on the audience to gently welcome them in.
Weez, I think the detail of your post is an explanation for why CAROLINE couldn't be embraced by American audiences in 2004. Between reality television and Disney spoon-fed musicals, America has become trained to warm up to characters that have been simplified and dumbed down. They don't want to have to think, or take the time to understand a character that they cannot immediately find a connection with.
I think a good comparison to the contrast between CAROLINE's critical failure in New York and success in London is that of CORAM BOY's success in London and failure in New York. People in the UK are more willing to invest in dark, depressing characters and themes, whereas for Americans, it's simply not worth their time when they could just as easily turn their brains off and hop on over to the latest Disney theme park spectacle.
"Winning a Tony this year is like winning Best Attendance in third grade: no one will care but the winner and their mom."
-Kad
"I have also met him in person, and I find him to be quite funny actually. Arrogant and often misinformed, but still funny."
-bjh2114 (on Michael Riedel)
-Kad
"I have also met him in person, and I find him to be quite funny actually. Arrogant and often misinformed, but still funny."
-bjh2114 (on Michael Riedel)
#18re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 12:25pm
While looking at shows to see on my trip to NYC, I had been following Caroline off Broadway. I was wanting to see some Off-Broadway stuff but it was transferring to Broadway and I decided I really wanted to see it based on its success off-Broadway. I attended a Wednesday matinee. After reading a lot about the show and its off-Broadway reviews, I was interested in the 1st act and how it ended. At intermission outside of the theatre, I struck up a conversation with a man who was enjoying it but was feeling that the 1st act didn't really take him anywhere but he wanted to see what the 2nd act had to offer. I told him we were being set up for the second act and, from what I read, the second act would bring it all together. I knew about the second act and I knew about "Lot's Wife" (But had not heard it). The entire show moved me. My mother, to a point, WAS Caroline. Not as angry. She cleaned homes for a living. I used to go with her to the homes and would meet, and sometimes, befriend the kids that lived in these homes. And the radio was always on. Always. One of the homes she cleaned was that of a doctor and his family. She had been working for him since before I was born. He delivered me into this world. all of these things went through my mind as I was sitting there watching the show. And then came "Lot's Wife". I was pretty much devastated. I have never cried in a theatre like I cried when she took center stage and delivered that song. it hit home. It seemed to say everything that I realized must have been going through my mother's mind back in the 60's. There were a lot of Caroline's in the 60' and even the 70's. I watched as my mother always wanted the best for me and would do what she could to give it to me. Going to school or trying to find a better job just wasn't in the cards because she was doing what she knew how to do and, like Caroline, maybe didn't want to do it all of her life but she was also comfortable doing it. And was a bit afraid of change. And then came "Salty Teardrops", which kept the tears coming. I totally understood the lines that "there is no underground. there is only under water". it signified, for me at least, that Caroline was drowning. Not able to come to the surface and "save" herself. Also witnessing Anika Noni Rose sing "I hate the Bus" was thrilling. And I was excited about seeing Marva Hicks and Ramona Keller (Who I had seen in the Premiere of Brooklyn here in Denver)
I have not been as moved in a theatre as I was that afternoon at the O'Neil. After the show I met up with the man I met at intermission as we had decided to go for a drink after the show. When he found me in the crowd I was pretty much shaking and he asked me what I thought about the show. I just looked at him and said, "I think we just saw a masterpiece". We then went to a bar called Therapy (!) and sat and talked about the show. I was told that at a performance a well dressed black woman made the comment that she didn't understand how this show was supposed to move her or how she was to be able to identify with it. Sadly, a lot of "upper class" black people may not. It didn't happen to them and a lot of them don't want to "confront" how it was for those less fortunate then them. It wasn't the "feel good" musical of the year, for sure. (And I think that is part of the reason it failed on Broadway. I really feel it would have lasted longer downtown) But it was an accurate "snapshot" of the time. And you did feel sad for her at the end. But on the other hand, again, she did what she could and knew how to do. I had planned to see it in the fall when I had planned a return trip to NYC, but sadly, the show closed before I got there. I would give anything to see this show again. I read here somewhere a few years ago that HBO had filmed it but didn't know what they were going to do with it. I hope they air it or put it out on DVD. That is probably wishful thinking. I have e-mailed them about it (No response) and have suggested that it be done here at our regional theatre. If I never see this show again, I still have that Wednesday afternoon to remember. Just my thoughts.
Just give the world Love.
Updated On: 8/12/07 at 12:25 PM
#19re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:26pm
I think you guys are overestimating the likability of Little Edie by "the masses."
A lot of people think she's weird, not funny at all, and kinda pathetic. They stop at "crazy dumb old broad."
They don't "get" her at all, in other words.
They're also not trying to. It's an instant dismissal based on the face-value first impression.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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#20re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:31pmuncageg---thanks for sharing that post.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
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#21re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 1:57pmMost welcome. Needless to say, I popped the Caroline or Change CD's in after posting that!
Just give the world Love.
#22re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 2:01pm
I know a lot of people didn't like the show because they thought Caroline was too grouchy. I don't think they really understood the show, though.
It's one of my favourite musicals ever. It was absolutely amazing here in London. I never understand, though, how people can find the Jews going to hell thing so funny, like Weez says above...
#23re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 2:05pmJoshy, I am with you on the line about where Jews go where they die. How on God's green earth can you laugh at that? Me along with people sitting around me were visably just stunned when that line was delivered. An extremely powerful moment.
Just give the world Love.
#24re: How Do You Feel About Caroline Thibodeaux?
Posted: 8/12/07 at 2:11pm
I feel exactly the same, uncageg. And yet each time I saw it people laughed and laughed.
One time I saw the show there was a horrible school group up in the circle. They did not stop laughing at the line (raucously and rudely) for over a minute - the young actor playing Noah was clearly shaken in the next scene, and forgot his American accent momentarily.
I swear when she sang Lot's Wife, Tonya directed the line "spoke my hate to a child" up to those kids.
Updated On: 8/12/07 at 02:11 PM
