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Nader appears likely to run -- ugh

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Auggie27
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Nader appears likely to run -- ugh#0
Posted: 2/20/04 at 3:04pm
Apparently we'll know on Sunday, and it looks like he's gearing up.

Yes, yes -- no lectures on democracy, please -- we all know it's "healthy" to have a 3rd party candidate articulating a POV sidestepped by mainstream candidates. But these times, to many, aren't so healthy, and the acrid taste of the attenuated loss of 2000 lingers in the mouths of many of us who remember what Nader's alternative "voice" cost this country. He certainly helped put W in there, as is widely opined, in a couple of key states.

There is already anti-Nader backlash, from the Anyone But Bush Dems (count me among 'em). One can only hope the A.B.B. machinery puts Mr. N in a Sharpton-like position.

The only danger -- and this is based on anecdotal evidence of a suspect nature, a handful of NY Times letters -- would be a Dean congregation exodus to Nader. That would spell dissaster. The good news: Howard's End was well scripted, with his very savvy, moderate-toned remarks promising to rally behind the Democrat. I think Dean's loyalty to the party is crucial here, and if he tells his supporters to adjust to a Kerry or Edwards or Kerry-Edwards ticket, let's hope they run en masse.

But, the issue that won't die could have more weight: If Nader comes out and strongly endorses gay marriage, to humiliate the strategic and pragmatic (get-me-elected-and-THEN-I'll-support gays-cause-if-I-say-I'll-like-you-now-I'm-history) stance of Kerry, it could mean protest votes cast in major markets. I'm sure it's middle-aged reactionary thinking, but I'm personally too rabidly A.B.B. to have any patience with protest voting. Protest later -- we need a regime change.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
Updated On: 2/20/04 at 03:04 PM
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iflitifloat
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re: Nader appears likely to run -- ugh#1
Posted: 2/20/04 at 3:31pm
As an ABB-er myself, this is worrisome. But I find it difficult to believe that when push comes to shove, Nader could siphon off enough votes to deep six the election for the Democrats. Of course, that's what I thought last time, too. I'm suddenly feeling very old (or for that 'positive' spin, mature) when I hear myself arguing against the idealistic, protest vote. Good lord, how *DID* this happen to me?? And then I step back and can see *exactly* how it happened. If the 2000 election showed us nothing else, it demonstrated how much a single vote does (or for that 'negative' spin, doesn't)count. I may vote my heart in the primary (just as soon as I figure out what that is...but let me say this, if Kucinich gets a vote in Jersey, be thinkin' of me....) but I'll NEVER squander my vote on someone who can't possibly win, in November.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
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I'm considering voting for the candidate most likely to get Bush out of office. That's my definition of a "protest vote."

Enough is enough!

His championing of the Gay Marriage Constitution Amendment sealed it for me. Get him out!
Updated On: 2/20/04 at 04:00 PM
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iflitifloat
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exactly
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
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papalovesmambo
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c'mon now, you crazy kids are just trying to cheer me up for the weekend ain't ya?
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

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Papa dearest! We'll do anything to cheer you up - naked pictures of Morgan Fairchild, Las LaRue serials on your TV...but NOT Nader! Ha!
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
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iflitifloat
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From today's Salon:
"It's hypocrisy of the highest level. It's egotism of the highest level. It's dishonesty of the highest level to say 'I'm running as an independent,' when all he's doing is helping elect Bush, and he knows it," says Elizabeth Holtzman, former New York City congresswoman and U.S. district attorney. "He's nothing but a shill for George Bush. A shill, period."

I couldn't decide whether this should go here or under the Favorite Quote thread... it's just so BWW.com. re: re: re: re: re: re: nader appears likely to run -- ugh
Shill
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Updated On: 2/21/04 at 06:32 AM
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You know....I've always thought the logic that Nader is responsible for Bush being office is a load of BS. I mean as Nader said himself, Gore won the election for christ's sake so how can it be Nader's fault he lost? Perhaps, if The Democratic party had not strayed so far from their original values they wouldn't have to worry about Nader. If fear of Nader can whip the Democrats back into shape, then i say good for him.
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But I think Howie's anger and populist rants are the reason the Democrats at least have a fighting spirit this time around. Ya know, it's all about the electoral college and Nader took enough votes from Gore last time to make the results so close that a group of activist judges had to make a decision on the winner that we could be living with for another four years.

It's true the election was Gore's to lose last time. But this time, Ralph will end up being the wedge again without being any real inspiration to Kerry, the way Dean had been. You know Rove et al will use that wedge.
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Eric, Nader shares some responsibility. Yes, one could argue (and rightly so) that Gore ran an abysmal campaign. But Nader took just enough votes away from Gore in several Key states (Wisconsin being one) to have forced the Florida debacle.

And The GOP was instrumental in running pro-Nader ads in several of theys key states.

My hope is that Kerry rips Nader to shreds by linking him with Bush as often as possible.
"Christ, Bette Davis?!?!"
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I know what you mean Master...but I think the more important thing to consider is why so many people voted for Nader in the first place. If the Democratic party doesn't figure THAT out and fix it...well then we're destined to repeat history. I voted for Gore last time around, but to be honest I wasn't very comfortable pulling the lever...
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c'mon now one and all to the tune of that ol' chuck berry ditty:

"out of all the spoilers
you know you're the mastermind
run, run, ralphie
howie ain't far behind"
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
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Auggie27
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Ah, but this election is soooo not 2000. It was very interersting to read the Times piece today on this speculation. People like Mark Green are entreating Nader not to run. Everyone knows the stakes this time are that much higher. I agree with Erik that Nader's run did kick Dems in the slats, and remind them how complacent and whiny they'd become. But I don't think he could possibly play the agent provocateur role now -- it's Dean's job, as Namo astutely pointed out. Nader likely will appear narcissistic, an ego run amok. 2.8 million votes will not be his.

Love/like/tolerate Kerry or merely see him as a Weapon of Bush Destruction ... the Dems are uniting, because unlike 2000, we have a known foe to take on. The aw shucks-styled, amorphous G.W.Bush wasn't much of anything in 2000, if you recall. Certainly NOT perceived to be the far right nightmare he's become-slash-revealed himself to be. So there was much apathy, much of it attributable to Gore's dreary, Clinton-distancing campaign and studied intellectualism, which didn't translate into much enthusiasm.

This time, apathy is hardly the mindset of registered Dems ANYWHERE, and the primary season has certainly demonstrated the power of collective loathing. Yes, that's negative power -- voting merely to remove. But it's power nevertheless.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
Updated On: 2/21/04 at 10:46 AM
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Like my beloved Clash once sang: "Anger can be power if you know that you can use it."
Chat with the groan-ups: https://twitter.com/NamoInExile
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Amen, Namo. A lot of us feel like Howard Beal in Network. Come November -- if not way before -- we ARE gonna open our windows and say "We're mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it anymore!"
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
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i am very curious. if, as i expect, gw wipes the floor with lurch, what will the response be from those who are so adamantly a.b.b.? would such a win create a gulf between the parties so deep that even what to order for lunch becomes a partisan affair? i know it's already bad, but would that drive the nail in the coffin of any and all cooperation between the parties? what do you folks think? personally i envision the beaten and shell shocked democrats rallying behind hillary clinton and leading a nixonian impeachment assault (if anyone knows how, she does, remember both she, slick dick and rummy were there for round one).
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
Updated On: 2/21/04 at 11:23 AM
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iflitifloat
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It could be the event that sparks a return to radicalism. All those mildly dis-satisfied Dems could shift leftward during another four years under Bush and the boys.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10