Is a white person playing a role "of color"* considered racist?- Page 2

[Dollypop]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 9:47pm

>>>"And just because the Met still uses blackface doesn't mean it's right to do so, even if Dollypop can't see why it should be an issue."<<<

When a black tenor with the vocal and dramatic chops to sing the role emerges, then we'll talk, Phyllis. There may be such a singer around but I'm not aware of him. No black organizations have concerned themselves with the matter.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 9:49pm

But, Phyllis, you yourself already pointed out that Hispanics can be of any race. An all-Anglo WSS is not the same as an all-white SHOW BOAT or FLOWER DRUM SONG.

Right. And just before that I pointed out that whites playing Hispanics isn't considered as egregious as white playing blacks. I'm not even sure why you directed your comment to me because I've said basically the same things Kad has said.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 10:03pm

No black organizations have concerned themselves with the matter.

It's still blackface. Maybe the Met will eventually take its cue from London's royal opera, which eschewed blackface in 2005.

I mean, in opera, ancient women play teenagers and everyone just accepts it. Why can't they just accept Othello is supposed to be black without blackening his skin?
Updated On: 11/29/12 at 10:03 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 10:08pm

Phyllis, I wasn't picking a fight with you. I was responding to this post of yours:

But, like others have said, if you don't have a enough non-whites, should you be doing a show that hinges around the fact that some of the characters are not white?

...and reminding you that you yourself have already pointed out that "Hispanic" isn't a biological race, it's an ethnic heritage.

By your own argument ALL the characters in WSS might be Caucasian. Unlikely, perhaps, but not impossible. (I have spent some time in PR; I wasn't keeping score but almost everyone I met appeared to be white.)

I certainly agree with Kad that exaggerated caricatures of Latinos would be offensive, but we could say that about a lot of ethnicities.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 10:14pm

I mean, in opera, ancient women play teenagers and everyone just accepts it. Why can't they just accept Othello is supposed to be black without blackening his skin?

Did Leontyne Price play her famous Madama Butterfly in "yellow face"? I've only seen pictures, but I don't believe she did.

ETA: okay, I googled her in the role and in many of the photos she does indeed seem to have lightened her face and neck (while leaving much of the rest of her very dark skin visible).

Opera is weird.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 10:35pm

Actually, never mind. Updated On: 11/29/12 at 10:35 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 11/29/12 at 10:44pm

NEVER!


ALWAYS!!!


RACIST!!!!


HOMOPHOBE!!!


SELF-HATING JEW!!!

...annnd dramatically collapse to floor.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 3:51am

Actually, never mind.

Phyllis, I apologize for addressing you as one adult to another. It really isn't my nature to carry a grudge, so I have trouble keeping track of these board quarrels that seem to go on for years at a time here at BWW.

Updated On: 11/30/12 at 03:51 AM

[My Oh My]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 5:54am

Of course it isn't "racist." I can't believe I have to do this, but I'll spell it out for you, OP.

A racist thinks of people of certain races inherently inferior to them, both physically and intellectually. They consider these folks to be "lower animals," as opposed to their own race, which they believe has evolved in meaningful ways that promotes progress in all areas of a society.

Why on earth would you categorize something like this, which has an obvious motive and rationale behind it (to enable the presentation of a show by improvising due to the lack of resources available) that isn't rooted in malice and can't possibly be said to give an edge to only some performers and shun others, as "racist"? It's not even mindless or insensitive. It's not even keeping actors desperate for work unemployed, when they are just as qualified and also bear the characteristics the roles call for. Makes no sense, lol.

[CJ N2N]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 6:49am

I'm only catergorizing it as my friend put it. I never thought it was considered racist until last night. Thank you My Oh My, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Updated On: 11/30/12 at 06:49 AM

[Jon]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 6:59am

Most of the Sharks in the original Broadway cast AND the movie were not Hispanic.

Maria in the recent revival, while a native of some South American country, was actually of European, non-Hispanic descent.

[newintown]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 9:59am

Not only should one only cast actors who are of the precise same gender and ethnicity as the character as written by the playwright, the actor must also have the character's name.

So you can't just cast any Latina as Anita; you must find an actress who was born and raised specifically in Puerto Rico and whose name is Anita.

Otherwise, it's an insult to Puerto Rican actresses named Anita.

[AC126748]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 10:02am

Did Leontyne Price play her famous Madama Butterfly in "yellow face"? I've only seen pictures, but I don't believe she did.

ETA: okay, I googled her in the role and in many of the photos she does indeed seem to have lightened her face and neck (while leaving much of the rest of her very dark skin visible).


As this thread appears to pertain to current attitudes towards race in the theatre (and opera et al), I don't really see this as a valid example. Perhaps Price was given yellow face make-up forty years ago to play Cio-Cio-San, and the original Maria in West Side Story was an Italian white girl from Chicago...the same thing would most likely not happen today. Attitudes change over time. The point Phyllis is making is that many opera houses (including the ROH) are eschewing blackface makeup when white singers perform roles like Otello or Aida. The Met should consider doing the same, if for no other reason than the bronzer and "ethnic" wig they put on their white Aidas looks more Teresa Giudice than Nubian princess.

I've seen several black sopranos portray Amelia in Un Ballo in Maschera, and I didn't need them in whiteface to convince me that they were an 18th-century Queen of Sweden. Opera is all about suspension of disbelief, and that should extend to this issue.

[newintown]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 10:19am

It's an interesting argument that morally "right" and "wrong" are not fixed.

Were Olivier and Anthony Hopkins evil when they applied dark make-up and played Othello? Was David Wayne evil when he played Sakini (and won a Tony for Best Actor) in Teahouse of the August Moon?

But I imagine that people would be marching and screaming if Daniel Day-Lewis (an actor noted for transforming from role to role, a highly-respected ability) tried either today.

There's a huge difference between performing a character of another race (or gender, or religion, or whatever) seriously, or as caricature. It seems that most people today are unable to recognize that difference. Being outraged is so much more fun than thinking.

[AC126748]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 10:29am

^ I don't think the word "evil" has been used in this thread. I think the questions and responses have been more geared towards looking at how attitudes have changed towards this issue throughout the years. I'm not personally offended that The Met lathers bronzer on a white soprano when she sings Aida; rather, I find it ridiculously unnecessary. I don't think anyone is outraged that Michael Cerveris is playing Juan Peron because he's not Hispanic. (There were people on this board who brought up the fact that Elena Roger is an Argentinian of European descent, which I thought was an arbitrary distinction to make) I do think it's interesting and important to consider the casting choices of a role in which race is a mitigating factor.

Updated On: 11/30/12 at 10:29 AM

[Patash]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 10:34am

I honestly think that skin color should be no more important than hair color. No one gets upset if a brunette gets cast as Marilyn Monroe and then dies her hair blonde or wears a wig to play the role. It's called acting -- and theatre. I pray for the day when people will get no more upset when an actor uses make up (really like donning a wig) to portray someone different from himself. I honestly the think the problem is with the people who want to make it a big issue -- when it shouldn't be an issue at all. But I'm well aware that many people totally disagree with that point of view.

By the way, I was reminded of a recent local story, when a second or third grader was supposed to pose and speak as a famous person, and a white boy chose Martin Luther King. Although no harm was meant and none of the kids were the least bit offended (yes there was a mix of black and white kids), when some parents got hold of the story -- all hell erupted. Too bad we can't all be as non-caring or as naive as those kids! Why should choosing a person of a different skin color and even adding make up to portray him be any different than a seven year old portraying a 60 year old and putting white in his hair to portray him?

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 10:35am

"Did Leontyne Price play her famous Madama Butterfly in "yellow face"? I've only seen pictures, but I don't believe she did.

ETA: okay, I googled her in the role and in many of the photos she does indeed seem to have lightened her face and neck (while leaving much of the rest of her very dark skin visible).

Opera is weird."

Depending on which act of Butterfly the photos are from it may not be "yellow face." If her face appears lighter than the rest of her skin it may just be that she was doing an approximation of the full on geisha make up with the very white foundation.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 10:39am

Dollypop, you said that no Black tenor with the vocal and dramatic chops has come along and can play Othello. But opera singers don't just materialize fully formed on the stage of the Met, and your comment points to the fact that Black men might not be going through lessons and schools necessary to become opera singers, and maybe it's not even presented as a career option to the young men and boys who might have the talent and potential to have a career.

It's not racism on an individual level, because I seriously doubt most of us are sitting here saying "oh well Black men can't be operatic tenors," but on an institutional level, there's some form of racism or discrimination that's preventing the Black tenor perfectly well-suited to playing Othello from rising to prominence.

So, I think that the issue (offensive stereotypes aside) is not that a white person is playing a role of color, but that an actor of color is not, and might not be because there apparently isn't one of the caliber necessary, which then reaches back to access to arts and encouragement for lessons as children.

[dreaming]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:27am

givesmevoice-There are a number of factors that go into explaining why there is a dearth of black tenors for roles like Othello. One is cultural-I go to the opera all the time and am amazed at the lack of diversity in the audience (even in the cheap seats and standing areas). Also, the training involved to become an operatic star of the caliber necessary to perform at that level (i.e., the Met), is expensive and not available to all-nor do many choose to partake in it. However, I think it shouldn't mean that the opera never gets performed (and clearly someone agrees with me as it is in the schedule for this season). I think it just needs to be sensitively done (and appears to have been so when I saw it in October). I'm not saying it's appropriate in all circumstances, but in opera in particular, the person's voice has to be right for the role.

[darion]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:31am

No, its not, just like its not racist to have an all black cast of Streetcar Named Desire. Paralysis by Political Correctness.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:33am

The opera world has historically embraced black female singers, but it has been harder for African-American tenors and baritones.

Noah Stewart, an emerging talented singer--stunningly beautiful and openly gay-- has said this about playing the lead in Versi's Otello:

What opera role would you most like to perform?

I’d love to sing the lead in Verdi’s Otello in the future. I think he’s a fascinating character and I always loved Shakespeare’s original play. But I have a number of years ahead of me to sing more lyric roles, which are more appropriate for my voice.

Here is he is in a Michigan Opera Theatre production of The Pearl Fishers:



And here is a video of him in Puccini's Il Tabarro, with soprano Jessica Klein:

http://youtu.be/dq5t66FGB08

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:36am

^ Oh...my.

He's heavenly.

[Geoff2]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 11:44am

As a black performer, I would say not a problem at all as long as everything is treated truthfully and respectfully to the culture AND the material. Any caricature portrayal would be troublesome. Obviously I don't think it makes sense for dominantly white organizations to produce shows where race is a major theme or to cast white performers in roles where race is central to the character (i.e., Raisin in the Sun, Ragtime, etc.). Same goes with dominantly black organizations.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 12:03pm

Didn't this get settled on Designing Women?!

[darion]

Posted: 11/30/12 at 1:10pm

asking this is pretty much saying youre obsessed with color