I don't care what you say, Stephen Schwartz is a God- Page 3

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 5:26pm

well i thought the good wicked dualism was one of the better executed aspects of the show - what's not to understand? It's perception that makes a person good or evil, whether all or not one is good or evil inanely.

Edit: Ah, Joe you beat me to it! :)

Updated On: 12/8/08 at 05:26 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 5:51pm

Actually, the wicked/good theme was much more blatantly spelled out in the musical than it was in the novel, which gets a bit bogged down with rhetoric. It is all about perception, but in the novel, pretty much everyone could be perceived as good or evil, especially Elphaba. While some of her deeds might seem admirable, the question of her character is far less ironic than it is in the musical. At the end of the novel, you could still say she was quite a bit wicked in nature. I'm not going to mention any spoilers, but if you think about what was left out of the musical, you might get what I mean.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 6:11pm

IMO, it'd be about perception if it were more ambiguous. Elphaba is so good in the musical that it's impossible to doubt her. In this case it's basically just how the Wizard and his henchmen screwed her over.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 6:20pm

Personally, I think the idea of perception plays on the presumption that the audience is familiar with Baum's work and the 1939 film. Other than Morrible's line christening Elphaba as the "wicked witch", do we really need to be reminded more often that she has been depicted as a wicked character before? There are enough moments in the show that illustrate anger, vengeance, delinquence and antisocial behavior. I really didn't have difficulty understanding how others may perceive her.

[Weez]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 6:27pm

It's important to remember that 'Wicked' the musical is basically 'Wicked for Dummies'. Bearing that in mind, it makes sense to show Elphaba as a little goody two shoes, because the "for Dummies" crowd already know her as wicked and would get VERY confused if you required them to think.

Posted: 12/8/08 at 6:31pm

I guess you're right, in that the musical doesn't really explain what makes people "Wicked." Of course, Harispray doesn't teach you how to make hairspray either.

[me2]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 6:46pm

Count me in on the Stephen Schwartz is awesome side. Every time I hear one of his scores or his lyrics, I feel like I'm noticing new things about what he's doing. His lyrics, in particular, really say volumes in fresh ways.
Broadway Mouth: Seven Reasons to Believe in Broadway Now

[toanythingtaboo 2]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 7:46pm

I don't fully understand the problem with the 'bridges' lyric, it makes perfect sense.

'there are bridges you cross
you didn't know you crossed
until you crossed'

Basically, sometimes you do things without realizing you were doing them until it was done.

Ok maybe that explanation wasn't the best, but it really isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

Same goes for the 'and nobody in all of Oz, no wizard that there is or was' - clearly a connection to the backward way Ozians speak in the Wizard of Oz with 'if ever a Wiz there was' or whatever the line is.

He gets unjust jibes and a little too worshiped sometimes, but it can't be denied he writes a hit here and there.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 8:19pm

Joe: No, but Hairspray isn't actually about hairspray. Wicked is about a character who is supposedly wicked.

Also, the impression I get is that Wicked seems to consider itself an in-depth character exploration. I'm arguing that it isn't.

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 8:44pm

Spork, I know there's a lot of contention with Elphaba's character development because the musical doesn't detail about her transformation into wickedness, save for "No Good Deed", which frankly is just Elphaba shouting nonsense sounds at a book. It also hints at her wickedness by having that scene where she imprisons Dorothy but it's not that a poignant scene to see as having sunk to the pits of wickedness. I agree with that.

But how bout seeing it as....

Elphaba was never meant to be viewed as truly wicked. It is the lies spread by Morrible to create the perception of wickedness, and this catalyses her 'abandon all hope' behaviour and causes her to 'might as well be wicked since all think of me this way'. as such, it is a commentary, i use this term oh so loosely, trust me, on how the best of us can fall to 'evil', without truly being innately evil - the No Good Deed song is sound evidence of that. So Wicked is not about showing the transformation of Elphaba to wickedness, but rather, showing how lies and fabrication can force wickedness onto an entirely good natured person, hence the line by Glinda: "Are people born wicked, or do they have wickedness thrust upon them?"

I guess that's just how I saw it.

Updated On: 12/8/08 at 08:44 PM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/8/08 at 9:23pm

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I just think it would have been more of a challenge if they actually kept Elphaba as wicked and developed her character to show how she became that way.

But that's my own opinion.

[Cuneas]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 3:11am

WICKED isn't supposed to be a realistic character exploration. It's supposed to be a study in symbolic archetypes. The endlessly abused living saint who thinks all the suffering in the world is her personal responsibility to set right. The sellout who chooses the adulation of a crowd over the love of those who matter most to her, and lives to regret it. The guy who has literally everything and gives it all up for an ideological cause symbolized by a woman, winding up a homeless, rootless freak of nature and not really caring. The hypocrite who commits endless atrocities but is so good at coming up with rationalizations for them that he really has no idea that he's doing anything wrong. The self-pitying weakling, crippled both physically and emotionally, who never really grew up and who expects other people to solve her problems but also resents them for doing it. The selfish, contemptable loser who destroys himself and hurts everyone else through an obsessive "love" for a woman he barely knows, and turns into murderous psychopath when he doesn't get her. These are fairly complex types compared to, say, the cast of ALLEGRO, but they are symbols rather than realistic people. But unlike the novel, the musical tried to tighten its play on the "Wizard of Oz" by not straying all that far from the tone of its source. And "The Wizard of Oz", in both the book and the movie, is exactly the same kind of moral fable enacted by symbols that I just described. You can understand why they made that decision.

And anyway, so what if WICKED the musical oversimplified
"Wicked" the novel? I'm sorry, I'm just sick of hearing that argument. I'm sure you're all "Camelot" fans. But have you ever read "The Once and Future King"? I could go on for hours about the violence Lerner's libretto did to that book, but it's never stopped me from loving "Camelot". That's the way it goes when you're turning a sprawling novel that covers twenty years into a two-hour stage production. If you think they did such a terrible job in WICKED, you try it.

Posted: 12/9/08 at 10:37am

Well put Cuneas. But Wicked haters will always hate Wicked.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 11:30am

Eh, my dislike mostly stems from the score, anyway.

I've never read the book, so I can't say if it's better or not.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 2:01pm

I guess I just think it would have been more of a challenge if they actually kept Elphaba as wicked and developed her character to show how she became that way.

That is a bit closer to the novel...somewhat, but the novel simply wouldn't work well as a musical if it was so closely adapted. The problem lies in trying to musicalize an adult novel based on an iconic family film and classic children's literature. By making it too adult and too dark, you only confuse (and possibly enrage) Broadway audiences familiar with the source material. To remain more faithful to the text and attract an audience for a commercial product, it really would have to be a non-musical film adaptation. As a musical, the Broadway production really did exactly the right thing. The musical does explore how she was perceived as wicked. It actually does so right from the opening number and into Glinda's story. It manages to retain the concept of the novel but with some of the family accessibility of the film.

While it may not have the greatest book and score (neither of which are bad at all), how many musicals actually do?

[defyingravity11]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 2:13pm

We were talking about this in class today. Our TA brought up an interesting point that I hadn't thought of before. Apperently, Stacy Wolf has written in great detail on sexuality in musical theater so we looked at Wicked as a queer musical. This is what we came up with: "What is this Feeling" is like "People Will Say We're in Love," the dance at the Ozdust ball room is the dance at the gym in WSS, the duet portions of "Defying Gravity" espress Glinda's love for Elphaba, and "For Good" is far more interesting than "As Long As You're Mine." Just look at the lyrics:

What is this feeling?
So sudden and new?
I felt it the moment
I laid eyes on you
My pulse is rushing
My head is reeling
My face is flushing
What is this feeling?
Fervid as a flame,
Does it have a name?

[commasplice]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 2:40pm

Stacy Wolf has actually written an entire article about how Wicked uses certain conventions to represent Elphaba and Glinda as a queer couple. The "People Will Say We're in Love"/"What is This Feeling?" is the comparison she uses to open the article, and she identifies the WSS parallel as well.
Updated On: 12/9/08 at 02:40 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 4:04pm

What is this feeling?
So sudden and new?
I felt it the moment
I laid eyes on you
My pulse is rushing
My head is reeling
My face is flushing
What is this feeling?
Fervid as a flame,
Does it have a name?

And then the rest of the song is about hating each other. Is that supposed to represent a lesbian couple as well? Or as long as they are being taken out of context, couldn't they be sung by a man and a woman? I don't understand...does Stacy just look for portions of lyrics that could be applicable to gay couples (basically any song of forbidden or unrequited love) or try to see something in a musical that doesn't exist?

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 4:08pm

The song's supposed to be a parody of a love song.

I don't think it's fueled by sexual tension or anything. It just describes what it's like when you hate someone so much that you get kind of a rush (no, not that kind of rush) from it.

[Hest882]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 4:20pm

I'm not a Wicked fan but I always enjoyed the cleverness of those lyrics. To have Stacy take them out of context and twist them to fuel her own agenda just makes me think she's rather limited as an academic.

[blaxx]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 4:46pm

While it may not have the greatest book and score (neither of which are bad at all), how many musicals actually do?

Is that a real question? As if...

[emo_geek]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 5:22pm

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Premiere_And_Celebration_Of_7th_SCHWARTZ_12131214_20081124

[emo_geek]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 5:22pm

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Premiere_And_Celebration_Of_7th_SCHWARTZ_12131214_20081124

[A Fleur De Toi]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 5:36pm

My friend once said that Wicked was one entire big lesbian moment; I just think the whole queering of Wicked boils down to the fact that it had two female leads.

Well, whether or not Elphaba and Glinda had gay feelings for each other is really anyone's guess, but the point is, it's not crucial to the plot. I guess Stacey Wolf can interpret the song and lyrics whatever way she wants, but ultimately it doesn't affect my understanding of the musical. I choose to see friendship between them and nothing much more.

That said, i have to admit I grossly misinterpreted The Wizard and I the first time I heard it. I actually thought Elphaba was singing of the Wizard as a lover. I guess I only heard...

"Oh, what a pair we'll be
The Wizard and I;
Yes, what a pair we'll be
The Wizard and..."

and

"
And I'll stand there with the Wizard,
Feeling things I've never felt.
And though I'd never show it,
I'll be so happy, I could melt!
And so it will be
For the rest of my life,
And I'll want nothing else
Till I die."

...and assumed she was in love with the Wizard. Also didn't help that I was one of those who misheard "I'll want nothing else Till I die" as "I'll walk down the aisle till I die" - which just made me think her lifelong ambition was to marry the Wizard. I am just such a failure

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/9/08 at 6:00pm

Is that a real question? As if...

As if what? I'm just saying that if every musical has an exceptional book and score, then what would make it exceptional? Then they would all be the same and not every musical has to be exceptional. Loads of musicals do not contain the best books and scores of the year, but are still popular, sometimes even commercially successful and entertain thousands (even millions).

I'm sorry, when did the word "queer" become a fashionable term for homosexuality again?

queer   /kwɪər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kweer] Show IPA Pronunciation
adjective, -er, -est, verb, noun
–adjective
1. strange or odd from a conventional viewpoint; unusually different; singular: a queer notion of justice.
2. of a questionable nature or character; suspicious; shady: Something queer about the language of the prospectus kept investors away.
3. not feeling physically right or well; giddy, faint, or qualmish: to feel queer.
4. mentally unbalanced or deranged.
5. Slang: Disparaging and Offensive.
a. homosexual.
b. effeminate; unmanly.
6. Slang. bad, worthless, or counterfeit.

–verb (used with object)
7. to spoil; ruin.
8. to put (a person) in a hopeless or disadvantageous situation as to success, favor, etc.
9. to jeopardize.

–noun
10. Slang: Disparaging and Offensive. a homosexual, esp. a male homosexual.
11. Slang. counterfeit money.

—Idiom
12. queer the pitch, British Informal. to spoil the chances of success.

Every time I hear that word, I'm reminded of schoolyard bully taunts.