Racial Issues and BWW Posters

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:35pm

Virtually each and every time a thread is started discussing the possibility of a show with an all black cast (the one regarding Follies from a few days ago is just one example), it inevitably becomes full of comments of people snarking things like, "Well, why not all white Color Purple? Or Porgy and Bess, etc, etc.

I just find it rather interesting (and possibly telling) that when a thread was started recently about an actual (not hypothetical) production of Falsettoland with an all-Asian American cast, it dropped like a lead balloon with nary a snarky comment.

It's fascinating to me that hypothetical suggestions of an all black Follies rankle people so much but the all-Asian Falsettos is being presented without a peep from the usual suspects, especially when Falsettos has such a strong Jewish identity. While Asian-American Jews are not unheard of, it's certainly not the cultural identity William Finn had in mind when he wrote that show Why doesn't that rankle people like the mention of a black Phyllis Rogers Stone does?

Any ideas as to why this is? Does BWW really hate black people?

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:35 PM

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:39pm

Kringas, I may sound a bit paranoid but as you pointed out, the evidence is there.
It is so interesting every time someone decides to argue for an all-white A RAISIN IN THE SUN when an all-black or color-blind production is discussed.
Actually, you don't need to go that far, do you remember the comments on the board when Audra McDonald was cast as Lizzie Curry and John McCullum as her dad?
The FOLLIES thread is just another prove that the answer to your question is most likely "yes."

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:39 PM

[ThankstoPhantom]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:40pm

Those comments are more snarky, just as you said, than racist. If you notice, many times they are trying to explain to the over zealous color blong casting supporter who screams RACIST every time someone says "Many shows it is fine, if not most. However, sometimes a show is race specific, ie Hairspray".

I'm sure some people on here are racist/prejudice. You get that everywhere you go. But I find it likely that those comments are more of a snark talk back in a ridiculous debate.

ETA: However, these snarky comments are way over the top, and make no sense.

I think people get too personal on here sometimes. And they also are torn with the original image of a show that they saw (which is usually all-white because of social climates in the past).

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:40 PM

[C is for Company]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:40pm

What I don't understand is why the same comments are dropped every time with nitpickers questioning if it was ever really this way. If you can't get over the fact that it might not be "historically correct" to have a black Javert then don't see Les Miserables.

I'd hate for them to find out that people didn't really burst into song back in those days either. And yet it all comes down to suspension of disbelief. Why can't we accept who we see onstage without questioning the accuracy?

If we're talking the Color Purple with specific instances of race relations and the growth of a young black woman, I don't think people should use that show to counter the argument. It doesn't suit the debate with such a specific instance that deals with color particularly.

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:40 PM

[Weez]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:40pm

You have no idea how difficult it is for me to not post a sarcastic reply (that would come off as incredibly racist) right now. Three cheers for willpower! ^_^

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:45pm

I agree, C for Company, it's okay to accept the fact that ghosts dance along with real women and that a lawyer bursts into song about the decisions he could have made and that he did make in the middle of a conversation but two African-American couples dealing with drama in the 1940s and 1970s? Did they even have feelings back then? Were they allowed to sing? *eye roll*

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:45 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:46pm

Double post. And if you're wondering, the title was changed because it might lead people to believe that I was implying the site itself was inherently racist, which I don't think is the case.

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:46 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:46pm

You have no idea how difficult it is for me to not post a sarcastic reply (that would come off as incredibly racist) right now. Three cheers for willpower!

Would it just come off as racist, or would it actually be racist? That's something to ponder.

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:46 PM

[Weez]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:47pm

It would come off as racist because you guys don't understand sarcasm. It's a very English thing. Like murder.

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:47 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:48pm

I see.

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:48 PM

[Weez]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:51pm

Mind you, commenting that Americans don't seem to get sarcasm could also be construed as racist. Even though I'm working from experience, having posted quite a few massively sarcastic replies on this very website before which people have taken at face value (which is very funny from my end, I must say).

In fact, drawing attention to the fact that race is a hotly-discussed topic on this site, couldn't that in itself be seen as some kind of racism?

If only there was a musical that had a song about this very topic... I mean, it seems like everyone's a *little* bit racist...

Or something.

Okay, less caffeine, more "leaving the internet alone". I should go to bed. If I can. O_O

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:51 PM

[ThankstoPhantom]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:54pm

Yes, Weez...it should be 1am for you by now! :)

Again, I hope it's not because people are racist. I hope that at the very least, sad as it is, people convince themselves that a cast has to be all white if that's how it was when it premiered, which is foolish. Social climates were different in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. A show itself can stand on its own two legs without specific races being casted in specific roles.

Only two shows come off the top of my head right now that are from the c. Golden Era with race-specific casting: SOUTH PACIFIC and PORGY AND BESS.

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 07:54 PM

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:57pm

I did mention the white Porgy and Bess though I hoped I explained why I was mentioning it in my Follies post and wasn't jsut using it as a snarky example. I also was gonna mention the Asian production of Falsettos (and the asian Sondheim productions in LA) but didn't really know enough about them I felt.

I think this is a touchy subject. Part of what made me uncomfortable and my comment was on was in the 60s and into the 70s there was a brief vogue of doing hit musicals with "all black" productions. I think it was a mixed blessing--for the time especially it made many audience members realize that these show swere just as good, if not better, when done by performewrs who nromally would have no chance at the material. But I do sorta think--while Broadway is in NO MEANS perfect right now--the time for those kinda shows have passed (Which is prob where i mentioned an all white Porgy and Bess).

The Falsettos is different (as was the LA East/West Players productions) IMHO, at least slightly because (again I know little about this really) I think that's a theatre company that's expressly there to do shows with an asian cast right?

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 7:58pm

In fact, drawing attention to the fact that race is a hotly-discussed topic on this site, couldn't that in itself be seen as some kind of racism?

I'm not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that discussing racism is racist?

And what's England's track record on racism, for us sarcasm impaired Americans?

[ThankstoPhantom]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:01pm

From the BBC:
Is Britain a Racist Country?

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:04pm

One could certainly make the case that American racism can be linked to British imperialism, but that's a whole other topic.

[Weez]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:06pm

England's track record on racism? Well, we're pretty sensitive about it in the media as a general subject at the moment, thanks to Big Brother. First there was Celebrity Big Brother, where three vapid non-entities thought it would be hilarious to bully a major Bollywood star because she's *omg!* Indian, now we're in the midst of normal Big Brother, where one disgracefully dull contestant was ejected for saying "are you pushing it out, you [n-word]?". So channel 4 is taking it (possibly too) seriously. But then, we're also the country that produces the Daily "don't let these immigrants take our homes and jobs!" Mail, so we've still got a way to go.

We've got sarcasm DOWN though. ;D

I think what I'm actually suggesting is that caffeine makes me crazy and I shouldn't be trying to participate in a serious discussion while hyped up. But I shall try and work out where that thread of thought came from...

Let's see, I think it was an incredibly vague reference to previous race threads where people have commented along the lines of we're always going to have these discussions and arguments until the day we look at a person and don't see the colour of their skin. I don't know if they're implying that we're ALWAYS going to have race issue discussions, because you will ALWAYS see the colour of a person's skin, or if they genuinely think we're on our way to a happy time where skin colour matters to NO ONE, we're just not there yet.

My favourite race riot on here was the one that descended into "well, no one knows a THING about mermaid genetics, so Norm Lewis COULD feasibly be Sierra Boggess's dad!".

I absolutely LOVE the casting of Audra in '110 In The Shade' and then refusing to cast her family to fit her skin colour. Yes, it took me a minute or two to get used to the idea, but that was it. If the story's not about skin colour, then skin colour shouldn't - and doesn't, for quite a few people - matter on the actors. :3

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 08:06 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:07pm

One thing to ponder is that there are all white productions of shows ALL THE TIME, they are just not touted as such, and a lot of people never even register it.

The Falsettos is different (as was the LA East/West Players productions) IMHO, at least slightly because (again I know little about this really) I think that's a theatre company that's expressly there to do shows with an asian cast right?

I don't see how it's different.

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:08pm

Exactly, Kringas! Probably 95% of Broadway productions are all-white and no one really minds or finds it any different or strange.

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:11pm

And as for the notion that this thread itself might be racist, I have said before on this board that as a white man in America I'd be lying if I said I never said or acted in a racist manner, whether intentionally or not. That doesn't invalidate my desire to examine and shine a light on that behavior in the world around me.

[Katurian2]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:12pm

They are all white either because the roles demand such, or it just happens that some white actors happened to be the best ones who showed up to audition. If a black or asian actor who was deemed worthy had showed up, they probably would have been cast. There are just more white actors than any other race.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:22pm

I don't see how it's different.

It's VERY different. I mean, there is no National Theatre of the Hearing when there is a National Theatre of the Deaf. Why have a theatre dedicated exclusively to white actors when white actors are pretty much the norm anyway?

There's no need to create a group for a segment of the population who's already the majority.

Someone tell me (I really don't know) -- in countries where there is a sizable white minority, are there white performing groups comparable to East West Players, Deaf West, etc...?

Updated On: 6/22/07 at 08:22 PM

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:25pm

Hrmm for me the reason it's different is if the Shuberts were doiing an all Asian Falsettos it prob would get more of a reaction on here than an Asian *theatre company* doing the same--that's why. I don't mean ethically it's different. And that's not necesarily my opinion, I'm just speculating on why the Falsettos got hardly "a peep" from anyone on here who might object to an all black Follies (I suspect those same people would have objected to a thread on an all Asian Follies as well--regardless if racism may still be worse or different towards blacks)

As for Britain they undeniably have their own racism problems--however from my experience (just from what I've read, seen, and living in London for 8 months), when we're discussing theatre, they're much more accepting, for whatever reason, of the idea of colour blind casting than Americans (American producers at any rate).

I'm actually all for colour blind casting (though I have more pause on the subject when the show is directly about race)--it doesn't bother me and I think I don't even really notice it, personally. I still think though that doing something like mor e"all black productions" causes some problems in this day in age. It could make some people see less reason to accept colour blind casting ("they can do their own production!") and make what little steps we have with that, fall away, likewise shoudl we start having "all hispanic" "all asian" castings too?

ANd from a less race based POV it does feel to me liek a gimmick--I know David Merrick--for all the good it ultimately did do--still afdvertised his black Hello Dolly precisely based on that gimmick.

And without sounding too preachy can I just say how pleased I am that so far this thread really has raised a lot of great and interestign points without getting personal--I hope it keeps up.

E




Updated On: 6/22/07 at 08:25 PM

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:26pm

Lizzie, Eric said that the all-Asian Falsettos was different from the hypothetical all-Black Follies. That's what I meant by why I didn't see the difference.

[Weez]

Posted: 6/22/07 at 8:28pm

We have a Chinese Billy Elliot! Our theatre can do colour-blind casting at least! ^_^