"Howard" on Disney Plus- Page 3

[Kad]

Posted: 8/11/20 at 8:36pm

The thought of an Ashman-led Disney is certainly tantalizing. His particular vision for animated musical storytelling put down in Mermaid and Beauty set the mold for nearly everything that's come after, up through Frozen, to the point that it all feels like a pale imitation of what he'd do.

I would like to think he'd have returned to theater, but it seems like he felt terribly burned and betrayed by Rosewater's transfer and the debacle of Smile. But, again, he had the last laugh: Little Shop, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and Little Mermaid are all massive successes, produced worldwide at all levels of theater (Mermaid not so on Broadway, obviously).

Here's a bit of something interesting not covered in the doc: Ashman was involved in the early development of Nine, directing and editing an early version of it at the O'Neill Center! Apparently it was his notes that led to the writing of "My Husband Makes Movies," among other things. Here's a panel discussion from '82 that includes him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGSajDdVRp8

[seaweedjstubbs]

Posted: 8/11/20 at 8:46pm

Kad said: "I did kind of have to roll my eyes at the clips of the live action remakes of Beauty of the Beast and Aladdin closing it out, which seemed like a Disney executive decision despite the existence of those remakes seeming like something Ashman would've fought against."

I felt the same way. Including the clips? Sure, that’s fine. Having them close out the whole thing? Absolutely not. Kinda put a damper on the whole documentary.

[jv92]

Posted: 8/11/20 at 9:16pm

I'm no fan of those live action remakes, but I took inclusions of those clips to be less a marketing tool and more a reminder of how his works has lived on and evolved and continues to be relevant to audiences nearly 30 years after his passing. So while I understand the dislike of those films, I kind of don't understand everyone taking umbrage with them popping up towards the end. They were there at Tribeca before Disney became a distributor. 

Before anyone asks why it wasn't included in that ending montage: The film was made before the recent Off-B'way LITTLE SHOP revival, which I think has proven Ashman's point that the piece works best in a small house off the beaten track of "Broadway!!!" 

[xtzg]

Posted: 8/12/20 at 2:13am

Kad said: "The thought of an Ashman-led Disney is certainly tantalizing. His particular vision for animated musical storytelling put down in Mermaid and Beauty set the mold for nearly everything that's come after, up through Frozen, to the point that it all feels like a pale imitation of what he'd do.

I would like to think he'd have returned to theater, but it seems like he felt terribly burned and betrayed by Rosewater's transfer and the debacle of Smile. But, again, he had the last laugh: Little Shop, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and Little Mermaid are all massive successes, produced worldwide at all levels of theater (Mermaid not so on Broadway, obviously).

Here's a bit of something interesting not covered in the doc: Ashman was involved in the early development of Nine, directing and editing an early version of it at the O'Neill Center! Apparently it was his notes that led to the writing of "My Husband Makes Movies," among other things. Here's a panel discussion from '82 that includes him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGSajDdVRp8"

I also think Ashman would have returned to theater had he lived. Maybe not Broadway for some years, as Smile seemed to have hurt him a lot more than Rosewater, not just the bad reviews it got, but also the whole process of making it happen seemed quite frustrating for him. At the time he might felt that he was not embraced by the theater establishment, and for good reason, but I do think his talent was recognized.

What really makes it heartbreaking to entertain the "what could he have done in theater" question is that Ashman's learning curve appeared to be quite remarkable. He took what he learned from Rosewater and made Little Shop of Horrors something that was nearly perfectly written and executed. In a way, I think from working on Smile he figured out how to navigate among various powers that be, as well as how to make something that would appeal to a wider audience while at the same time keeping the sophistication intact, and that helped him succeed at Disney. I have no idea what he would have done in theater had he lived, but am fairly certain that it would have fared better than Smile. His best work was yet to come.

For a moment I thought they were going to briefly mention Ashman's involvement in the early development of Nine, as they did take time to note that it was Maury Yeston who first introduced Ashman to Menken. But maybe they were aiming at a more general audience and thought that would take more explanation than the documentary had time for.

Updated On: 8/12/20 at 02:13 AM

[xtzg]

Posted: 8/12/20 at 3:08am

jv92 said: "

I often think about this. As much as I like the scores to POCAHONTAS and HUNCHBACK (I feel that Menken's strongest underscore is HUNCHBACK, and that he deserved a ninth Oscar for it), I think as animated family entertainments, they're mistakes. Yes, animation isn't just kiddie stuff-- certainly MERMAID and BEAUTY (or SNOW WHITE, PINOCCHIO, et al) aren't-- but there's a certainly levity and fantasy necessary for animation, and those elements tacked onto those respective stories aren't necessary. That's why I think HUNCHBACK works so much better as a stage piece-- without the cutesy gargoyles!

"

I can't agree more! I adore the score for Hunchback and think it's definitely one of Menken's greatest work. The animated feature itself, however, doesn't really work well.

One of Ashman's strengths, and what made him such a perfect writing partner for Menken, was that in addition to being a great lyricist, he was really a dramatist who understood how to use music. He and Menken really complemented each other well, both in terms of strengths and in terms of personalities. I do feel sometimes people might be a little too harsh on Menken on these boards, though (not you, jv92, but people in general). Menken's best writing partner was Ashman, but the same was also true for Ashman. Menken at least has been able to achieve reasonable successes collaborating with quite a few other lyricists and maintain amicable working relationships with them, while Ashman...well we know what happened when he worked with another composer.

What made Ashman such a good fit for Disney, though, aside from his apparent talent as a storyteller and lyricist, was his love for and understanding of the medium of animation. As an outsider, his knowledge of Disney animation was quite astounding, so much so that he was able to sit the Disney staff down and do an oral history of the evolution of the American musical and the evolution of the Disney animated film, convincing them the two types of storytelling were meant for each other. Glen Keane, one of the lead animators at Disney, asked to work on Ariel because he felt so compelled to draw her after hearing "Part of Your World." And according to one of the directors of Beauty and the Beast, they would rush back to the drawing boards after listening to the songs, because the lyrics just demanded a drawing. Of all the lyricists Disney worked with since the late 1980s, Ashman was the one who truly reveled in all the possibilities offered by animation, instead of more or less simply bringing musical theater sensibilities to Disney. Compare the lyrics of "Under the Sea" "Be Our Guest" to "Hakuna Matata", or "Poor Unfortunate Souls" "Gaston" to "Be Prepared", and it's very easy to tell which ones just beg to be animated. Even though Disney continued to do well with their animated films after Ashman's death and well into the 1990s, those later films never really achieved the same degree of integrity as The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast did.

Updated On: 8/12/20 at 03:08 AM

[Wayman_Wong]

Posted: 8/12/20 at 2:46pm

In a new interview with Huffington Post, Alan Menken reveals how he felt watching ''Howard'' and how he's dealt with losing Ashman to AIDS. Also shared: a story about how Howard once visited Andrew Lloyd Webber, who considered him to write the lyrics to ''Phantom.''

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/howard-ashman-documentary-alan-menken_n_5f32f61ec5b64cc99fdf2c60

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 8/12/20 at 8:23pm

xtzg said: "jv92 said: "One of Ashman's strengths, and what made him such a perfect writing partner for Menken, was that in addition to being a great lyricist, he was really a dramatist who understood how to use music. He and Menken really complemented each other well, both in terms of strengths and in terms of personalities."

There's a reason why every book on how to write a musical uses Little Shop of Horrors as a primary example. From a structural standpoint (in terms of plot structure and song spotting), Little Shop is as perfect as a show gets.

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 8/13/20 at 11:31am

There's a reason why every book on how to write a musical usesLittle Shop of Horrors as a primary example. From a structural standpoint (in terms of plot structure and song spotting),Little Shop is as perfect as a show gets."

I mean I wouldn't say it's PERFECT. It has a very similar plot structure to Sweeney Todd which came before it and there isn't a moment of Sweeney wasted on anything frivolous, and of course Faust.

Little Shop while charming and a delight and a classic still employs songs that stop the action. I'm not saying it diminishes the show, but I just wouldn't go as far to call it "perfect" as few book musicals are. I'd also say the humor is lite

[Kad]

Posted: 8/13/20 at 2:58pm

"Perfection" is, of course, subjective, but Little Shop is absolutely a model of concise, less-is-more writing for musical theater as well a lesson in knowing exactly what your show is and what it needs to be, a lesson that still too few musical theater writers have heeded- particularly and ironically in off-Broadway musicals that only exist because Little Shop paved the way.

Sitting through a "quirky" musical that takes its clever kernel of an idea and proceeds to stretch it to 2.5 hours is not something I miss right now. Ashman knew exactly how much the conceit of Little Shop could support.

Updated On: 8/13/20 at 02:58 PM

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 8/13/20 at 3:33pm

For what's it worth, the Dizney Coast to Coast podcast had a lengthy interview with Don Hahn this week about the doc and he addresses a few of these things very specifically:

- The conscious choice was made to NOT have talking heads because Hahn's experience was that sitting there with a tape recorder allowed the interview subjects to relax and be more open with their stories than if there was a camera crew watching, and lights, and larger equipment. He also did not want Hi-Res 2020 juxtaposing against grainy 1980s footage and figured it would better set time and place, and also having 20-20 minutes of talking heads allowed him to have 20-30 more minutes of pictures, lyrics, footage, etc and that was important to him.

- Disney was not a producer on the film and did not have or exert any influence on the edit. Nothing is there as marketing for Disney.

- Menken asked if he could be the one to score the film because he felt the need to do it regardless of what the budge would be.

[Patti LuPone FANatic]

Posted: 8/25/20 at 1:26pm

https://broadwaydirect.com/the-little-mermaids-jodi-benson-on-working-with-lyricist-howard-ashman/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_campaign=BD391&mcid=dk1aOFpyaVFZUUxDZnlmYnlWbGN0dHhZUkhnYmk4M28=

[JeffDaEgg2]

Posted: 8/25/20 at 3:21pm

On the topic of additional "research" recommendations, "Treasures Untold: The Making of The Little Mermaid" is a great making-of documentary (45 minutes).  It first appeared on the DVD of The Little Mermaid and for some odd reason doesn't seem to be on Disney+ in its entirety, but is on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdMMg6OSn1Q  It strikes me as a rough draft of Waking Sleeping Beauty (another great documentary, in case you haven't seen it!).

The podcast "Guys Who Like Musicals" also did a good episode about Ashman this month that's worth checking out.