Unnecessary Characters- Page 3

[NoName3]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 1:19am

Gaveston, I agree completely with everything you think about the song lyrically and how it expands the show beyond farce in the second act. It's just that at that point so late in evening I want the characters to wrap up the story and, especially, I don't want such a lackluster (to me) melody even if it devolves from prior musical themes and offers commentary. This late in the story, I want to see these characters I've grown to love happy and hum my way home. Your reaction is probably more discerning than mine but that's where I am. I'm glad to share opinions with someone of your knowledge and sensibilities.

No more scotch and to bed.

[After Eight]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 7:30am

"Your reaction is probably more discerning than mine but that's where I am."

On the contrary, yours is the more discerning one. And the far more human one, as well, as opposed to some dried up, pretentious egghead's. As if anyone gives a damn about social commentary or "class perspectives" at that point in the evening. Or whether she will marry the miller's son, the baker's cousin or the pied piper's twin brother, for that matter. Oh, and another little matter: the song itself is miserable!

So don't sell yourself short. Your judgment is far better than his.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 10:56am

So opinions are more discerning when they're in line with yours. Noted.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 12:23pm

Noname, I make no claim to superior discernment. But, yes, in a 2-hour musical, I want to hear from the working class. If Petra's number were put earlier--before the follies of the middle classes are fully revealed--it wouldn't have the same impact.

To me, "The Miller's Son" ranks with "Ladies Who Lunch" and "We're Going to be Alright" (original lyric) as lyrics where internal rhyme and other elements are used so dazzlingly that I don't mind the interruption. To me, it is one of the elements that makes ALNM so much deeper than KISS ME, KATE (despite the wonderful score of the latter).

***

Note to A8, "dried up"? Maybe now, but I fell in love with the NIGHT MUSIC score when I was 19. How sad that because a show is smart and literate, you are so insecure you must dismiss it as pretentious!

[Consistency]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 2:14pm

So is this really After Eight's entire schtick? I've been lurking on the forum's for a while, and I don't think I've ever encountered someone so wholeheartedly devoted to insulting everyone who has a different opinion than him and his mythical "99.9999999%" (because, like the pretentious person he is, he has deluded himself into thinking that he represents the majority. He has also deluded himself into believing that "most people disagree with you" is an effective condemnation of taste.)

I mean, I don't think I've ever read a thread relating to a Sondheim show where he didn't eventually pop out of his cave to tell us all (in the most condescending, hyperbolic terms possible) about Sondheim's artistic and moral failings and how Not Good most of Sondheim's shows are and how normal people don't like Sondheim and so on. He can't seem to let a single positive statement about a Sondheim work go by without him telling us all how wrong we are. When people react negatively to his rantings, he accuses them of being "diehard fanboys" or other such mindless rhetoric - never realizing that it's not the opinions, but how they're presented that cause the strong reactions.

Take this thread as a great example of the After Eight effect: People were discussing their different opinions respectfully, with no condescension or vitriol, and with no need to make grand pronouncements about the relative refinement or sophistication or validity of one person's taste over another. And then After Eight showed up.

Here's a hint for After Eight: Ones "pretentiousness" and "humanness" aren't determined by what shows you like or even why you like them. They're determined by how you interact with other people. GavestonPS was perfectly respectful in his posts here (I have a really hard time imagining you ever uttering the words: "No apology required. We can agree to disagree.") You, on the other hand, are vitriolic and disrespectful. You also suffer from the delusion that you speak for the "common man," which makes you extremely pretentious (and which lends your posts a strident tone.) In reality, your posts reveal you as far more of an elitist than anyone else here.

That is all to say, you are the most dried up, pretentious person I've ever encountered on an internet forum.

That has nothing to do with your opinion of Sondheim - I've known several people who were ambivalent to or disliked Sondheim, and who were willing to express their feelings in strong terms, who I still respected a great deal and loved talking to. Wanna know the difference between you and them? The way they talked to other people. They didn't pretend that their opinion of a composer made them more intelligent or honest or human than anyone else. They weren't under the impression that they were constantly fighting a war against "elitism" and "bad taste" (ie, opinions that were different from their own.)

I know you imagine yourself as some brave hero who's willing to speak truth to power - but, in reality, you're not conquering elitism. You're perpetuating it. And you're making yourself look like an entirely unpleasant, arrogant jerk in the process.

Updated On: 7/12/13 at 02:14 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 2:16pm

Wow, you seem to have learned so much in your ten days here. What was your screen name before ten days ago.

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 2:48pm

i really loved the revisal of FLOWER DRUM SONG but I just never understood the Harvard character and why he was created for the update... i apologize for ignorance but he wasn't in the original, right?

I also just saw a production of You Can't Take it With You and never quite understood the point of the Countess in Act 3

[After Eight]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 4:00pm

Uh, Consistency,

The one thing consistent in your post is that it's consistently topsy turvy.

In this thread, I mentioned an unnecessary character in a show, without attacking anyone. Then I was set upon by the ever-so-polite Gaveston and like clockwork, that smoldering tinderbox of resentment.

You seem to have a definite problem discerning the injured parties from the perpetrators.

Oh, well, you're new here, so let me offer you a hearty welcome to Broadway World!

I'll be looking forward to your insights.





Updated On: 7/12/13 at 04:00 PM

[N2N Nate.]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 4:02pm

Eponine?

[nasty_khakis]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 4:12pm

Not meaning this as a slam against any of her songs, but Eponine is pretty useless. All she is needed for is to carry a letter from Marius to Cosette. In fact, most film adaptations of the novel cut her completely.

[darquegk]

Posted: 7/12/13 at 4:15pm

Her purpose is less plot and more dramaturgy- she builds a strong and recognizable female presence against Cosette, who is more or less a plot object. She gives us an excuse to hear female voices and see a featured female character onstage where otherwise there would not be.

Is that NECESSARY? No, but it's practical.

[Adam Chris]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 12:41pm

Remember the old crones from the original Martin Guerre and the one song they sang Sleeping on Their Own?

That was such a throwaway moment.

[LuminousBeing]

Posted: 3/12/22 at 1:43pm

PTOPhan said: "Why this is the first one that popped into my head, I have no idea, but Max from the movie version of "The Sound of Music" seems to do nothing but give Captain von Trapp a chance to make an anti-Nazi speech. Max just hangs around, eating, drinking, and sounding cynical. I never saw the stage version of the show, but I think he has a bit more to do there.

He does have a bit more to do in the stage show, but even in the movie, Max is the one who organizes the concert the family competes in, and he's instrumental in their escape. 

 

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 3/14/22 at 5:45pm

TheGingerBreadMan said: "The nanny goat thing in WICKED. She has one line in the opening number and then she's done. I understand that it is an ensemble track played by someone who does multiple other roles, but honestly, those masks are expensive and it's just a waste. Having the Witch's father as the only one there during the birth would be just fine."

The goat midwife is necessary.

She’s important for the world building. It sets up, in the first few minutes that in Oz, animals talk, they have jobs and this particular goat is midwife to an important family. 
 

The plot line with the animals, is what first drives Elphaba. If you remove the Goat Midwife, then the first and only other talking animal you meet is Dr Dillamond and he there would be no context. 

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 3/14/22 at 6:22pm

I know it hasn’t opened on Broadway yet, but AJ Shivelys character in Paradise Square is pretty pointless and unnecessary. 

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 3/16/22 at 1:35am

Oh without question it's the B plot they added to the Broadway Rodgers and Hammerstein Cinderella with Laura Osnes.

Existing exclusively to pad it a longer show. 

Also I hate the use of Ensemble of Bridges of Madison County.

[ATerrifyingAndImposingFigure]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 5:02pm

Cinderella’s father in Into the Woods. He has extremely little characterization, no impact on the plot, and just a few throwaway lines while his only singing is with the ensemble. It’s telling that nobody seemed to complain when he was cut out of the movie, unlike they did with the Mysterious Man.

[Rudy2]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 5:04pm

PTOPhan said: "Why this is the first one that popped into my head, I have no idea, but Max from the movie version of "The Sound of Music" seems to do nothing but give Captain von Trapp a chance to make an anti-Nazi speech. Max just hangs around, eating, drinking, and sounding cynical. I never saw the stage version of the show, but I think he has a bit more to do there.

"

 

I think he provides some sorely needed comic relief.

 

[SheTalksToBirds]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 7:32pm

ATerrifyingAndImposingFigure said: "Cinderella’s father in Into the Woods. He has extremely little characterization, no impact on the plot, and just a few throwaway lines while his only singing is with the ensemble. It’s telling that nobody seemed to complain when he was cut out of the movie, unlike they did with the Mysterious Man."

Totally agreed! Really, Milky White is just a fake cow and plays a much more important role than him. I guess he was just shown to show Cinderella has stepmother? The fact he got married again and all? I have no idea. 

[ATerrifyingAndImposingFigure]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 8:54pm

I recently heard in early previews that he was depicted as neglecting Cinderella because she reminded him too much of his wife. I don’t know how much larger his role was first intended to be, I’m sure not by much, but that at least shows he was originally going to have some kind of character outside of just acting kind of buzzed. As it stands in the show, he truly is an absurdly thankless role. There may be other small parts, but they at least get some kind of character and a moment or two or focus. I feel bad for any actor playing the role who has to watch everyone else have fun parts while they do next to nothing.

The closest I can come to of him serving any kind of narrative purpose is that his ignoring Cinderella shows that she’s not just initially unable to stand up to herself in the face of abuse, but can’t even do so to such a passive figure.

Updated On: 3/31/22 at 08:54 PM

[ATerrifyingAndImposingFigure]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 8:54pm

Double post

Updated On: 3/31/22 at 08:54 PM

[ACL2006]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 9:30pm

The "New Yorkers" in Company.

[jonartdesigns]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 10:21pm

Cinderella’s father was originally intended to double as the Mysterious Man, which thematically works nicely since both are absentee fathers. Some productions still do this if the Narrator doesn’t play the MM. Although technically one actor could play all 3 roles. 

[ATerrifyingAndImposingFigure]

Posted: 3/31/22 at 10:32pm

With the discussion on the role I was wondering if maybe he was doubled since I knew that was the case when Chip Zien played the Mysterious Man and the Narrator was instead a child actor.