Musicals Considered the Best Ever...- Page 3

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 2:43am

I will never understand the hype surrounding My Fair Lady. I find it to be one of the most boring musicals ever written. I have seen it three times (one was even the critically acclaimed Cameron Mackintosh production), and all three times I have been bored out of my mind. I designed the set for a production of My Fair Lady as well. Yes, some of the songs are nice, but other than that it is just beyond boring IMO.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 8:23am

Rainbowjude, wouldn't HIggins superciliousness and irony permit him to employ these departures from proper English is discussing that very theme, let alone to do so in a songschpiel where he is self-consciously parading his wit? I can even see Higgins viewing his ability to put over his substandard usages to his Covent Garden street audience as proof positive of his thesis that they can't speak English, and his use of an "Americanism" as dispositive support for his assertion that Americans don't currently speak English. Who better than an expert dialectician or grammarian would be (or rather who "more" than an expert dialectician...) familiar with the American language so as to use it in a lament on posited native English speakers' supposed failure to speak English?

And, by the way, what is the error of tense in 'there even are places where English completely disappears' Certainly "are" and "disappears" are correct. What substituted verb form would be "correcter" (misuse of the comparative form intended)? I don't think either clause would properly "be" (here I am using the subjunctive of "is" as I am speaking of the hypothetical) required to employ the subjunctive,, as he WAS not speaking in the theoretical/subjunctive. Do you mean, perhaps, that he should have said "there even are places where English "has" completely "disappeared"? (or, perhaps, more simply, and in the simple preterite), "where English completely disappeared." Perhaps that would be, in your estimation, clearer but it wouldn't scan and I'd argue that it would prove stilted (and therefore a much worse lyric). And I don't think it is incorrect for Higgins to say "completely disappears" simply because in America he frames it in terms of a past occurrence, as he is using American English as only one example among many (perhaps some where it be an ongoing relinquishment, not a past perfect one as he cites it being in America) of a complete absence of the language. His allusion to American English, rather than being an example of a present progressive near extinction, is rather additional evidence of English obsolescence, past perfect or progressive (that is, if progressive obsolescence is not a contradiction in terms; if it be such, then my use of "obsolescence" might be incorrect, but not anything Higgins says (or rather, said, although at any moment there is likely a performance of this song being enjoyed, or, at least, a performance of "My Fair Lady" in progress) as he was referring to both obsolescence and near obsolescence as proof of disappearance, past perfect or in progress). Please excuse any dangling parenthetical.













Updated On: 5/28/12 at 08:23 AM

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 10:12am

So the very first post in this thread mentioned Oklahoma as one of the shows frequently mentioned on the "all time greatest musicals" list. While I recognize the historical importance of Oklahoma in the evolution of the book musical, my own opinion is that it's not even close to being the best Rodgers and Hammerstein musical, let alone one of the best musicals ever. In fact, I think that much of it is a bit dull.

While I love Carousel, I think I'd go with a show that has only been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, "The King and I" as not only the best R&H show but one of the top five musicals ever. But in truth it's very hard to compare musicals of different eras. How do you compare R&H to Sondheim? (other than in the greatness of the lyrics).

So how are the Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals usually ranked? To me, The King and I has the best score, by far. So many songs are stand alone greats. And it has perhaps the most thrilling moment, when The King finally takes Anna in his arms as the orchestra plays those two extended notes that begin "Shall We Dance", and they begin the wonderful polka across the stage.

What do you all think?

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 1:26pm

Oklahoma has always been my favourite R&H musical, by a fairly large margin, followed by Sound of Music.

[ErinDillyFan]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 1:54pm

My votes for best musical:
Ragtime
Les Miserables
South Pacific
West Side Story
Gypsy

and my personal soft spots:
Oliver!
The Drowsy Chaperone
25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee
The Wild Party (Lippa)
My Fair Lady

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:20pm

RainbowJude, I believe you're being too literal regarding "where English completely disappears". I think the personification is from the point of view of a traveler who finds that "English disappears" gradually as he travels northward, say, toward York. (America is distinguished as the place where the language vanished long ago.)

But there's no question that "hung" should be "hanged" and Higgins would know it.

And FWIW, you were perfectly clear that you are talking about one character's diction, not arguing that all characters should use perfect grammar. Point taken.

Updated On: 5/28/12 at 06:20 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:24pm

I will never understand the hype surrounding My Fair Lady. I find it to be one of the most boring musicals ever written. I have seen it three times (one was even the critically acclaimed Cameron Mackintosh production), and all three times I have been bored out of my mind. I designed the set for a production of My Fair Lady as well. Yes, some of the songs are nice, but other than that it is just beyond boring IMO.

Funny you should say that, because setting the songs aside, what remains is fairly faithful to one of the most popular plays in the English language. (Except for the ending, of course.)

I think one of the problems with MY FAIR LADY is that it has become a warhorse, much like CARMEN or MADAME BUTTERFLY in opera houses. Too many productions are either too reverent or simply indifferent (because the show is only being done because it's a sure seller).

I didn't see the most recent revival, so I am not commenting on that production.

Updated On: 5/28/12 at 06:24 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:33pm

RaisedOn, I know that several books (like Martin Gottfried's Broadway Musicals which I grew up reading) think The King and I is the best, or most "perfect" of the R&H shows. My heart belongs to Carousel, but I do think K&I is the more, for lack of a better word, perfect of their musicals--it seemed to be the peak of what they wrote together.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:35pm

RaisedonMusicals, I was certainly "raised on THE KING AND I" and I still love it, its questionable politics aside.

But OKLAHOMA!, in my opinion, is the most perfect expression of what R&H were trying to accomplish in the theater in terms of expressing content by integrating speech, song and dance. (And Rodgers wasn't forced to write for two, non-singing leads.)

Unfortunately, like MY FAIR LADY, OKLAHOMA! is too often performed as if by rote, just because it's a surefire hit.

***

ETA I see that Eric and I are once again at odds, so in the interest of peace, let me just say that when I lectured on American Musical Theater, I always used the "Shall We Dance?" scene as the perfect example of speech giving way to song giving way to dance as the tension of the scene rises. Updated On: 5/28/12 at 06:35 PM

[After Eight]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:40pm

Personally, I prefer Cinderella of all the R&H musicals.

Soon to be destroyed, no doubt, in a new "revisal."

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:44pm

Eric, I took "The History of the American Musical" from Martin Gottfried at Columbia U. He was a nice man and his book looks great on the coffee table, but he isn't someone I'd invoke as an analytical authority. (He was much better with matters of historical fact.)

Among other questionable opinions, he insisted in 1981 that Bob Fosse's film of CABARET showed the future of musical theater because all the songs were sung on a stage. Gottfried was certain that the days of characters singing their feelings during representational scenes were over.

Of course what followed was 20 years of sung-through poperettas.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 6:52pm

As I've grown up I have liked Gottfried's writing less and less, especially reading some of his reviews. As a kid his Broadway Musicals with the photo of A Chorus Line on the cover was my bible--I think I had it continuously out from the library. He also seems to have been a pretty homophobic writer (which is always amusing when someone makes their living largely writing about musical theatre).

We always seem to be at odds, don't we? :P I prefer both Carousel and Oklahoma to King and I, but I think King and I is the more polished piece, if that makes sense? That also makes it less exciting. While the acting was a mixed bag, it was great to see the N Carolina televised production of their "recreation" of the original Oklahoma!

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 7:20pm

I don't remember Gottfried being especially homophobic in class. I had been out of the closet for some time and would have said something if he was, I'm sure; I doubt I would remember him positively as a person. But, like William Goldman in THE SEASON, Gottfried is a product of his time. One overlooked a lot in those days.

I think all the R&H hits are quite polished, so I'm not sure I see the distinction you are making. But I'm happy to put THE KING AND I in the Top 10, if not the Top 5.

(Speaking of R&H, ME AND JULIET should have its own thread. What WERE they thinking?)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 7:50pm

He had some similar comments to Goldman about the homosexualization of Broadway.

I do think King and I is more polished than their earlier work--and I suppose as a peak I consider it over Sound of Music because Hammerstein didn't do the book.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 5/28/12 at 8:22pm

Eric, I agree about THE SOUND OF MUSIC. I burst into tears every time the family starts up the mountain and I am ashamed every single time. I think it's more of a guilty pleasure than a "polished" work.

In fairness and at the risk of starting a war with the other gays of my generation, I keep in mind that Goldman was actually stating the "liberal" position of his time, however offensive we may find his views a half-century later. Of course the "liberal" position of the 1960s was incredibly condescending, but that was the time (with some notable exceptions, of course).