Overly "self-aware" songs & characters

[jpbran]

Posted: 3/16/10 at 4:01pm

I know they don't come from very "artful" shows, but I'm thoroughly annoyed by a couple of songs for the same reason: too much "self-awareness."

"Dancing Through Life" (Wicked) and "My Strongest Suit" (Aida) are two examples of characters singing and bragging about their own flaws and shallowness, stretching character credibility even in "silly" shows. Waaaaay too self-aware and honest. Any other examples? I'm blanking... (every song has a subtext, but I just don't buy "I'm shallow and it's AWESOME" as one)

A character can be in denial of their own shallowness, or they can be innwardly aware of them, but I have trouble believing a character who's supposed to be "shallow" (despite later changes) can be THAT insightful about their own failings and think of them as something to celebrate...

Sorry-- too much by myself time in the car recently.

[angelxschunard]

Posted: 3/16/10 at 4:20pm

That's the character, though. While it's obviously not Shakespeare, and I can't speak for Aida because I've never seen it, Fiyero's character is just that: shallow. He's about as deep as a puddle until much later into the second act. That's who he is. He happens to be genuinely self-absorbed and deeply shallow, so he says, but Elphaba clearly sees through that and says that if he was, he wouldn't be so unhappy. I believe that it's a face he merely puts on to fit in. He clearly has being stupid and carefree worked out as his personality, and not just personality traits.

God, I love character development and analysis, as you can tell! Lol

My question for you, though, is why do you think it's such a bad thing for these characters to be blunt with who they are?

[darquegk]

Posted: 3/16/10 at 5:37pm

The point of Dancing Through Life is that Fiyero is "supposedly" a born rebel, and proud to be a burnout.

Strongest Suit isn't about Amneris's flaws- it's simply that she considers fashion and appearance to be the most important aspect of a person's presentation, and something that she excels at.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/16/10 at 6:35pm

Well, he's defintely not bragging about his failings, but I would say that Bobby Baby's self-analysis in "Company"'s "Marry Me a Little" and "Being Alive," is really trying. (In fact both songs are two sides of the same coin, and one would have been more than sufficient.) Too much introspection, too much self- preoccupation, too much self-pity. I wish he would just stop whining already, and get on with his life.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 3/16/10 at 7:02pm

A lot of people think that "The Beauty Is" from Light in the Piazza is too self-aware.

[jpbran]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 12:25pm

Angel: I know he's supposed to be shallow, etc. My issue with both him and Amneris is that they're soooo overly aware of it and bragging about it. It's just simplistic to get the characters flaws on display for the audience. "Why show the audience when the character can just TELL them?"

It's just lazy writing.

[MagicalMusical]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 4:46pm

You do seem to not realize that Fiyero is supposed to be unshallow underneath, he either is ignoring his deepness that Elphaba sees, or he doesn't know he has it in him, and would rather not think about hard or horrible things.

And that's another point, it doesn't seem so much about his own shallowness as it is the message you should not think to much, you should just, well, dance through life. He's telling other people to do that.

And actually, I don't know if it's so shallow, either. "Dancing through life, here at the Ozdust, only because dust is what we ome too." Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. He's saying we're just gonna die, "nothing matters" so just dance, we're just dancing through life anyway. But Elphaba says, no, you need to do important things and live an important, fulfilling life, and things matter. At least I think so.

[darquegk]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 4:51pm

And Amneris isn't bragging about her shallowness, she's bragging about her greatest talent, which is her fashion sense and skill with an outfit. It's like "I know my flaws, but THIS is what I'm good at, and I love it." Although, like Fiyero, she later reveals that it's a facade.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 5:00pm

A good Amneris will never play the character as shallow. She's never depicted or described that way. It's just an easy "out" for a lot of actresses, because it allows them to find an easier arc in act 2. There's nothing inherently shallow about singing to the fact that fashion and appearance are the most important part of a person's personality. In many ways, it's true. The better Amneris' I've seen (Sherie Renee Scott, Idina, and Mandy Gonzalez) avoided this, while the weaker ones (Felicia Finley, Darcie Roberts, Lisa Brescia) played her like a complete airhead in act 1, so the transformation in act 2 would be easier.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 5:14pm

I think over self awareness is a very common flaw of musical theater. It's pretty terrible writing when the structure of a show consists of a book scene followed by a character analyzing his motivations or the action around him. And this problem does exist in more "artful" shows. I'm not really sure how to articulate what I'm trying to say here.

Posted: 3/17/10 at 7:29pm

I think the OP is confused about the characters of Fiyero and Amneris. Neither are as shallow as these songs make them seem- deeper characterizations are shown in the 2nd act of each show. These songs are not "overly self aware" but are in fact, the facade they put on. This is what they want people to thing.

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 7:52pm

"I think over self awareness is a very common flaw of musical theater. It's pretty terrible writing when the structure of a show consists of a book scene followed by a character analyzing his motivations or the action around him. And this problem does exist in more "artful" shows. I'm not really sure how to articulate what I'm trying to say here."

I hate to say this, sweeneytodd2 ... but I find a lot of Sondheim songs to be self-aware.

The songs become an overly analytical lecture to the audience of what is going on, on stage.

A Little Night Music:
Send in the Clowns
The Miller's Son

Into the Woods:
I Know Things Now
The Steps of the Palace
It Takes Two
No One Is Alone

Sunday in the Park:
Finishing the Hat
Putting It Together

... just to name a few.

It's one of my biggest problems with Sondheim shows, much as I love them and him.

[After Eight]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 9:38pm

Best12bars:

I agree with you regarding Sondheim's overly-analytical lsongs, though perhaps not "Send in the Clowns." (I find "The Miller's Son" to be a pretentious and completely unnecessary song, and it makes a long evening longer.) Lecturing the audience is a way of looking down upon them, and I find that offputting.

[gcontini2]

Posted: 3/17/10 at 11:34pm

on the top of my list:

most any song by
Frank Wildhorn (ex. Jeckyll and Hyde)
William Finn ( ex. A New Brain)
and heck
half of Miss Saigon, while we're at it...

Updated On: 3/17/10 at 11:34 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/18/10 at 12:04am

After Eight, I agree with you.

With "Send In the Clowns," the only part that crosses the line for me is the bridge.
Just when I stopped opening doors,
Finally knowing the one that I wanted was yours,
Making my entrance again with my usual flair.
Sure of my lines.
No one is there.

That's the part I think overdoes it. I do buy it a bit here, because Desiree is an actress, and she is overly self-aware, so it works more than not.

And don't get me wrong. I think Sondheim's lyrics are brilliant. I love his rhymes in the Miller's Son, and I love what the song says about growing old and how the perception of romance and its priorities change as we get older.

I just don't buy that Petra, a simple, 20-year-old servant girl, would be singing or thinking these words. She's not 40 or going through midlife crisis ... yet. Besides, she just had sex with Frid in the woods. Who is she talking to?

I always worry when Sondheim switches his pronoun to "you." That always signals to me that a lecture to the audience is coming. It's no longer "I" or "we" or even "they." These aren't so much a character's observations as they are information and opinions being served to the audience.

"It's a very short day
'Til you're stuck with just one
Or it has to be done on the sly
In the meanwhile"

If Petra were singing about herself, she would say, "It's a very short day 'til I'm stuck with just one." Not the collective people as a whole, the invisible audience she suddenly has in her mind.

That's when I tend to pull away. Although (again), I'm hugely impressed with the rhymes and what he's trying to say. Just not how it's being served to "us," the audience.

One of the worst offenders is "Into the Woods," where so many characters come forward to give us a lecture and report about what they've learned and how they've changed now, and what "we" should all have learned from such an experience. They're not singing their thoughts so much as standing in front of an invisible classroom.

"Better run along home
And avoid the collision.
Even though they don't care,
You'll be better of there
Where there's nothing to choose,
So there's nothing to lose.
So you pry up your shoes.
Then from out of the blue,
And without any guide,
You know what your decision is,
Which is not to decide.
You'll leave him a clue:
For example, a shoe.
And then see what he'll do.

Now it's he and not you
Who is stuck with a shoe,
In a stew, in the goo,
And you've learned something, too,
Something you never knew,
On the steps of the palace."

I really hate the use of "you" here. Who is she singing to? Who is she "teaching" how one should behave in a situation like this? I would much rather see the pronoun "I" in its place.

[BwayBaby18]

Posted: 3/18/10 at 12:50am

Best12Bars i agree with your point about "Into The Woods" but only to a point. Isn't part of the point of a fairy tale to be a lecture to children. I have always kinda taken it as Sondheim's tip of the hat to that. And that yes they are speaking to the audience. I think this idea was better realized in the revival production though, with the use of the story books.

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/18/10 at 1:16am

I just think they cross the line into way too much self-awareness at times. There already is a narrator in Into the Woods. So, while the other characters are living their lives on stage, they also stop everything and tell an audience about what they've learned so far. It isn't just a style choice in Into the Woods. He does in many other shows.

When Georges sings of how "you" have to finish the hat ... who is he singing to? A classroom full of students? He doesn't tell us that "he" has to finish the hat. He is telling us that "we" or "one" has to finish the hat, almost as if he's speaking behind an invisible podium, lecturing and advising an audience on the creative process. The point he's making is a brilliant one ... but the character suddenly becomes very self-aware of what he is doing. It's not his "inner thoughts" but almost an "outer presentation" to an unseen third-party audience. Or even a "seen" audience, if you chose to think Georges is breaking the fourth wall at that moment.

Yes, you could say this is Sondheim's style. And I would agree with you. I would still say it can be incredibly self-aware for some characters to do this.

Updated On: 3/18/10 at 01:16 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/18/10 at 1:42am

I should also add that Sondheim doesn't do this in all of his shows. I can't think of one instance in "Sweeney Todd." It's only a couple of times in Night Music. It happens a lot in Into the Woods, and several times in Sunday in the Park. It also happens all through Passion, but to me that whole show is "self-aware" and "self-obsessed" with all three main characters. That's kinda the point.

It mostly (but not always) happened in his shows with Lapine, come to think of it.

I stil think Sondheim's lyrics and the sentiments behind them are generally brilliant and, at times, deeply moving. But it can put an unfortunate distance between me and his characters when they suddenly start singing about what "you" feel or "you" should be doing or thinking. I can almost see that invisible lectern separating us.

[jpbran]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 12:59am

A couple of people are saying I'm "confused" about the characters... Wow, I'm in pretty sad shape if I'm confused by a character in either of those two enjoyable but flimsy shows.

As I said before, it's lazy writing and character development. I've been a writer (not musicals) off and on, and my degree is in Fiction Writing (film/screenwriting as a minor.) I'm not completely uninformed... Character development needs work and nuance in most mediums.

The song should be an "exaggeration" of something the character would REALLY do if they weren't in a world of singing. I get they're both supposed to have a deeper undercurrent that's later revealed. And I can buy they're shallow, but the fact that they PROUDLY exclaim it and OWN it so outwardly just seems like a short path for the writers to get it across to the audience in 3 minutes instead of actually developing and portraying.

(Sally Bowles in Cabaret says and does things that show her to be flighty and kinda shallow; she doesn't have a song called "I'm Just All Surface" in the first act. And the princes in Into the Woods portray their single-minded shallowness in "Agony" pretty obviously without coming out and SAYING how awesome it is to be only into maidens because of their inaccessibility; almost but more subtly.)

I really thought this would just be a few more instances of people mentioning other examples, not posters saying I didn't GET the "subtleties" of Fiyero. Has certainly turned kinda interesting though!

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 11:48am

"And I can buy they're shallow, but the fact that they PROUDLY exclaim it and OWN it so outwardly just seems like a short path for the writers to get it across to the audience in 3 minutes instead of actually developing and portraying."


... or Fiyero is just demonstrating a little self-deprecating humor as well as owning his own faults. He laughs it off and shrugs it off. He's the first one to laugh at himself before anyone else has the chance.

Like a heavy girl in school who goes around saying, "yeah, I know I'm a fat pig, so what? I'm big, and I'm beautiful!"

A lot of people do that these days. It's everywhere on TV, too. The ones who laugh first and get in the first dig, before anyone else has a chance. It's a form of emotional self-defense, when you get down to it.

I should add that I'm one who thinks "Wicked" (yes the MUSICAL) is a lot deeper than some people give it credit for ... at least around here on the message boards. It may not be Sondheim ... and it may not be overly analytical ... but it definitely has resonated big-time with the general public. They're connecting to these characters, including Fiyero.

Can you honestly tell me you've never met a cute guy who shows off and readily celebrates his ignorance? Please, if I had a nickel ...

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 11:54am

Maybe I'm weird but when I'm pensive I often think in "one" should do this and in non-personal pronouns. I don't find it that weird at all.

[newintown]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 12:41pm

I'm always astounded to read people pointing out the "flaws" in the lyrics of Sondheim, the most brilliant, skilled, accomplished musical theatre writer alive. It's akin to saying "Willy Loman's journey is boring." It's your opinion, it's fine, but really -it's a case of an ant boxing an elephant.

I mean, just compare the least of Sondheim's lyrics to the mundane doggerel verse of SPRING AWAKENING or NEXT TO NORMAL.

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 12:50pm

Yes, I have desecrated your "god." I apologize.

My opinion, yes. But how dare I? How dare you?!

I do think he's brilliant (mostly), but he's not perfect. He's analytical and an acquired taste. And he distances himself from me at times by "lecturing" with his lyrics. And I do call that overly self-aware.

[Weez]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 12:55pm

I think I'd take the lyrics of 'The B*tch of Living' or 'How Could I Ever Forget?' over 'I Feel Pretty' any day, newintown. I love Sondheim, but I'd never deify him as you seem to have done. He's just a man, after all. Supremely talented, but far from perfect.

(Out of interest, how many "Sondheim lyrics" were written by Sondheim anyway? Surely Lapine, Furth, etc have had at least a little bit of a hand in there somewhere along the way! :P)

Updated On: 3/19/10 at 12:55 PM

[best12bars]

Posted: 3/19/10 at 1:05pm

"(Out of interest, how many "Sondheim lyrics" were written by Sondheim anyway? Surely Lapine, Furth, etc have had at least a little bit of a hand in there somewhere along the way! :P)"


Good point, Weez. Sondheim always talks about how import collaboration is for him. As I mentioned earlier, although it pops up occasionally in his earlier works, his "lecturing" lyrics seem to occur mostly in his later shows with Lapine. I think he was definitely influenced by that collaboration.