A slightly more mature thread on the "color-blind casting" issue- Page 3

[millie_dillmount]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 5:40pm

"The idea that you can cast Melba Moore as Fantine is ludicrous, and yet it was done. One would never dream of doing such a thing in film. I remember a TV production of Cinderella where Whoopi Goldeberg & Victor Garber played the parents of an Asian man (I wish I could remember the actor's name, but I'm sure someone will help me out & I'll appreciate it) & the evil stepsisters were both white & black. It was both illogical & distracting."

Who cares? The show was family television, aimed for a primarily younger audience who, in my opinion, probably did not give a damn what race everyone was!

[StephenSondheimWHOO]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 5:43pm

I think with plays you have to be a little more concious, it would be harder to believe a play with a family with total different races. In a musical, however, we are all ready suspending reality by accepting that they all burst into song regularly.

[Jon]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 6:04pm

It's OK to have "color blind casting" even when the shwois about actual people who really existed - as long as race isn't an important part of their story.

I'm fine with a black Rose in GYPSY, or a black Maria in SOM.

However, I WOULD have a problem with a black John Adams in 1776, since the issue of slavery is discussed in detail during the show. I think it would be distracting if there were blacks in the Continental Congress discussing whether blacks should be free!

[englishtoser]

Posted: 10/17/08 at 1:00am

Jon writ: "It's OK to have "color blind casting" even when the shwois about actual people who really existed - as long as race isn't an important part of their story. I'm fine with a black Rose in GYPSY, or a black Maria in SOM. However, I WOULD have a problem with a black John Adams in 1776, since the issue of slavery is discussed in detail during the show. I think it would be distracting if there were blacks in the Continental Congress discussing whether blacks should be free!"
Yes and no. We are living in 2008 not the time 1776 was set in (1776, I guess) and we have to bear in mind - whatever the issues - that these days people should not be restricted from roles by dint of their colour, gender, etc. You pick on a very specific role, but the general rules of "now not then" still, in my view, apply to ALL roles. Historically most parts in English-language shows/plays are 'white characters' because most scripts - particularly the known/classic/revival-happy ones - were either written in the past or are set in the (pre-multi-culturalist) past, so often have few if any specifically 'non-white' roles. Equally, ALL actors used to be male (in Shakespeare's day, for example, as women weren't allowed to do anything as fancy as acting). So if Shakespeare happily watched male actors playing Juliet, Lady Macbeth, etc (where womanly wiles/nature/sexuality were an intrinsic part of the character), why should we worry about a black actor playing a white abolitionist? It's about the performance not the person.

[Salene]

Posted: 10/17/08 at 8:38am

As talented as the young Korean boy (I'm 99% positive he was Korean, thought that's what it said in his bio) was in London's BILLY ELLIOT...

Matthew Koon's parents are from Hong Kong.
http://www.billyelliotthemusical.com/cast/Matthew_Koon.html

[choitoy]

Posted: 10/17/08 at 8:49pm

I've read both threads about this topic, and find it very interesting, being a racial minority myself.

I personally think color-blind casting is fine, unless the script specifically states a character is a certain race, and the themes of the show deal with that. If there is a white person playing what is written to be a black character with a line like "You don't know what it's like to be black", then I have issue with it a little. But if there is no such thing, cast away.

But I agree, casting a person without regard to race is nearly impossible, because with all the people in the audience, it is going to be an issue with someone out there. You can't please everybody, so a director/casting director can not just cast anyone without justifying why, at least initially. Place a note in the "Directors note" at the beginning of the program or what not.

Also about the suspension of disbelief thing, I think that America as a whole is loosing a little of their ability to do that in the case of a realistic story. Blame the movie industry, because things have to be so grounded in reality. Even those "comic-book" movies either have to be realistic (see "spider-Man") or very hyper-stylized ("Sin City") to be effective, there is no real middle ground.

Speaking of which, the 5th Avenue Theatre in Seattle is presenting "Hello, Dolly!" later this season. Originally I was going to skip it, but they've announced that they are casting an African-American Dolly (though I don't know if it's going to be an all black cast, or a mixed race cast. I hope the latter). This has got me interested again.

[andrewcomp]

Posted: 10/18/08 at 12:55pm

I brought this up awhile ago on another board for "RENT". I asked why all of the roles haven't been racially flexible in the past except for Mimi. (I don't think there's been any race that hasn't played Mimi, except Indian.) And the ironic thing is that Mimi is the only one with a specific race, stated in the script, and obviously her name. It really depends on the show. I saw a production of the Wizard of Oz with a black Glinda/Aunt Em. She was very good, and it wasn't distracting at all. I honestly don't know if you could get away with a black Anne Frank due to the time, location, religion, etc. Which is why I say it really depends on the whole situation :)

[My Oh My]

Posted: 10/18/08 at 2:36pm

People, "Hispanic" IS NOT a race. It's a culture. This means ANYONE of any race with parents from a country where Hispanic culture (Cuba, Central America, parts of South America, Spain, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic) is the tradition and Spanish the official language, is considered Hispanic. This is usually denoted by common surnames, as well.

Daphne Rubin Vega does not represent the stereotypical perception of a Hispanic woman as she is predominantly black. However, she is as Hispanic as any individual from any 'Latin' country. In most people's minds, the Mestizo--a person of mixed white and native Indian heritage, which, incidentally, is what most people in countries like Mexico and Puerto Rico are--represent the ideal "Hispanic." That's fine and all, but this is inaccurate. I guess it's society's attempt to neatly separate and distinguish between races, but the truth is, Hispanic people are a truly multiracial people linked together by culture.

As for Evita being played by white actresses...well, the real Evita WAS white. She was also Hispanic. She was a white Hispanic woman, as are the vast majority of people of Argentine descent.

Updated On: 10/18/08 at 02:36 PM

[Jon]

Posted: 10/18/08 at 3:18pm

For that matter, the cultural heritage of Mexicans is completely different from that of Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominicans, etc.

Updated On: 10/18/08 at 03:18 PM

[My Oh My]

Posted: 10/18/08 at 3:29pm

They are variations of the same culture, so I wouldn't say they are completely different. Most of the traditional aspects remain the same. Not to mention, they share the same native language, which is probably the most important factor.

I know, it gets confusing. You can blame the U.S. census for the mess.

"The federal government considers race and Hispanic origin to be two separate and distinct concepts.

The Current Population Survey (CPS) provides national level data on the social, economic, and demographic characteristics of selected race groups and Hispanic origin."

http://ask.census.gov

Updated On: 10/18/08 at 03:29 PM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 10/18/08 at 5:11pm

I don't have a problem with "color blind" casting. The original op makes a point that of course they take it INTO consideration and each production has to decide for itself IF they feel it changes the integrity of the production.

That being said: I have no problem with it. I don't even think under MOST circumstances you have to "make up" why off spring is of a different race....after the first few minutes most of the audience just "forgets" the difference.

I find if I think too much about WHY something is the way it is DURING the performance it takes away from it. I try to accept it and think LATER.

I can understand QUESTIONING the choice behind a casting if it interfered in anyway with some one's understanding of a production. The original sock puppet (from the other thread) didn't just question it but went on to state that he/she ONLY wanted to see the "white" Billys perform...which certainly sounded reprehensible.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 10/18/08 at 6:27pm

Interesting to read so many varied responses--some people, as expected, using this thread as a soapbox to stand on to affirm to everyone (and themselves) how "not racist" they are (even though casting a role appropriately has nothing to do with being racist or not), with others actually writing responses with honesty and specificity.

Show business is the only business in which what you look like actually DOES matter. And that's just the way it is. It sucks, but that's life. As I said in my original post though, I do think it's important to be as flexible as the material itself allows.

[StateOfJade]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 1:56am

How is Daphne Rubin-Vega predominantly black? She's HISPANIC. She's from Panama.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 2:12am

How is Daphne Rubin-Vega predominantly black? She's HISPANIC

Well, hey, Sammy Sosa is black...and Hispanic.

Maybe you should reread what My Oh My said in the first place. You may have missed a point or two... or 56.

Edited to add: http://www.broadway.com/buzz/news_feature_detail.aspx?id=545792&p=3
I'm a Latina who was born in Panama but there's black in me, there's white, there's Asian, there's Dutch. I'm from all sorts of different cultures so how could I not represent that in my work? I don't know how not to be that.

Updated On: 10/19/08 at 02:12 AM

[hpeabody930]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 2:18am

See here's the thing though- the second a show is billed as "color blind casting" it is no longer color blind. This sort of casting really only works one-way though, I guarantee sometime in the next 20 years we will see the "all black AUGUST: OSAGE COUNTY" but there will NEVER be an "all white THE COLOR PURPLE", it is a very odd dilemma of sorts that will always be an issue as long as we still point out that a show is "color blind casted".

And some other poster in this thread mentioned something about SPRING AWAKENING being "color blind". I would like to say BS. I had a talk back with the cast this summer and one of the cast members pointed out how "great it was thst SA was the only show on Broadway that was truly using color blind casting"........ what???!?! Are you kidding me?? They have 2 asian girls singing on the side, and Lily Cooper was the closest thing to "color-blind" that show got.

Moral of the story: Casting will never really truly be "color blind" no matter how hard we try.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 2:21am

This sort of casting really only works one-way though

Not necessarily.

http://www.sondheimguide.com/pacific.html#CST

[StateOfJade]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 3:35am

Yes, but Daphne LOOKS latina, not black, and the majority of her roles have been that of a 'Hispanic' character. Fantine was the exception, except for a few other roles where race didn't matter. ANyway, commence the conversation lol.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 4:40am

I mostly agree with the Spring Awakening reference. At least both the asian girls understudy and have oft gone on for many of the roles.

However, my question has always been: why are NONE of the males ever anything but white???? They are the heart of the production. I find it hard to believe that they haven't come across ANY young men of color (of any sort) that were talented or "right" enough for any of the parts.

Re: Color Blind Casting in reverse:

The biggest differenct is that race has NOTHING to do with August and it is at the heart of Color Purple, although the story has messages for all. I find it sad that the vast majority of the time a vehicle (tv show, movie or stage show)that stars people of color MUST be about race. Exceptions (like the Cosby Show--just a family that happened to BE black) are rare.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 5:13am

The tour has Anthony Lee Medina.

FWIW.

[Urban]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 8:40am

Mamie - I actually remember your post about TMW from a couple of years ago and it was my first thought when reading this thread.

I have no problems with race when it comes to casting (unless the central core of the show is about racism et cetera). Considering I often have to fork over $110 these days half the time - I am going for ENTERTAINMENT first and foremost, realism be damned - I want good actors, singers and catchy pieces. :)

Granted sometimes colourblind casting can add an extra layer to the show which intrigues me (ie - Asian Ellen - though I have always heard it was done originally for economic reasons - thus they can reuse any actress playing or u/s the role in other parts of the show, as a part of the chorus - why waste money on one person in a tiny second act role only when she could be utilised in the background in the rest of the show).

Granted I am equally amused at the narrow-mindness of some people who say 'x was this colour in real life thus always must be that colour'. I seem to recall Lynne Cheney in between writing lesbian westerns did some rhetoric in one of her other books decrying the amount of black Cleopatras out there.

Yeah we all know in reality Cleopatra was an inbred white chick culturally from Macedonia, but a good story and a good actress should be able to transend that. That is what art is about!
Updated On: 10/19/08 at 08:40 AM

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 10/19/08 at 11:47am

And it's usually only an issue if a person of color is cast in a traditionally "white" role. No one flips out when Evita is done with a cast full of white people.

Thank you. Apparently it's only a problem when minorities invade a "white" role, but object to a blonde-haired, blue-eyed (Disney) Aida and everyone jumps all over you.

With Rent and Hairspray closing, The Lion King is the only show left on Broadway with roles dedicated to black actors. I think that's a bigger disgrace than a Hispanic child playing Billy Elliot. Colorblind casting shouldn't exist just so there's an excuse for more white people to be cast in minority roles- they already have 90% of the roles on Broadway open to them. One Billy Elliot every other day is (unfortunately) not going to change that anytime soon.