So Bush wanted to fight Iraq before 9/11...

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Auggie27
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I don't have much to say, as yet, I just wanted to get the board fired up on this subj--if being fired up is to one's taste. And to learn if this not-so-new wrinkle in the Bush regime agenda invites extensive comment. Erik in particular, what can you offer? But also Namo, Papa, Roxy, Ifitfloat, all others ... take it away. I am curious as to whether this revelation from the ex cabinet member -- along with the (yawn) tidbit about Bush being short of attn span and at best monosyllabic during meetings -- has political teeth.
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Updated On: 1/11/04 at 03:45 PM
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I dunno, Auggie.

It should have been above-the-fold on the front page, but the NY TIMES buried the story deep in the A section.

I'm not holding my breath on this.
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Sorry to have left you off the list for solicited commentary, Master! I thought you might be stuck back at the Wicked January 8th performance debacle. Many of us are.
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Does this really surprise you? Bush the First failed at getting to Sadam. Did you believe that Bush the Second was not going to "finish the job"?
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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Yes, that Wicked thread really is somethin', huh?!
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iflitifloat
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I'll take an early swing at this one. That's how it seemed to me all along. Bush's almost immediate rat-tat-tat linking Hussein to Al Qaeda to terrorism as a whole, seemed to flow too easily for it to be spontaneous. Either that or Bush just got the bad guys mixed up. But really, as much as I dislike the man and question his intellectual capabilities, even *he* has to know the difference between bin Laden and Hussein, and if he *doesn't*, there are certainly people of influence around him who DO. At any rate, it doesn't surprise me to hear a former, if disaffected, member of the 'team' say it on the record. Then again, O'Neill's going to have to have back-up to make this stick. Without verification, he'll be discredited as a "former disgruntled employee".
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BTW, I just noticed that O'Neill's being interviewed on 60 Minutes tonight at 7 pm.
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I floated a conversational trial balloon about this topic with my Republican sister (whom I adore) this afternoon. This is a woman who HATES Hilary Clinton with every fiber of her being but is unable to articulate any reason why. This is a woman who told me during BJ-gate with Clinton that "it's the LYING I can't stand."

Her answer to the reports about the O'Neill assertions: "I don't believe anything I read or see or hear anymore." Although she and her husband fervently believe that the Clintons had Vince Foster killed and made it look like a suicide. This is a notion they must have read or seen or heard somewhere.

What I find happens is this: When Democrats are caught in a lie, Republicans go MENTAL about moral standards and get all Bill Bennett on people's asses. When Republicans are caught in a lie, the Republicans say "Well, all politicians lie, I don't trust any of them." It's really awful.

My sister's other excuse was that just because O'Neill said it happened, "how do we know?" So apparently she is willing to make the leap of faith on the murder of Vince Foster, just because, but the documentation O'Neill has and his own eye-witness accounts are not reliable. It's frustrating. But to get a bead on what the average American citizen who isn't too plugged into things thinks, she then said the most telling thing:

"It's bad if he lied but the point is we had to do something or otherwise we would still be getting attacked. It's better that the war was fought in Iraq because I believe if it wasn't, they would have continued to come here and attack us and the war would have been fought here."

I tried to point out that the vast majority of the highjackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabians, but this appeared immaterial to her.

So my point is that there are different standards that people use and they do not apply them equally.
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Updated On: 1/11/04 at 04:17 PM
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And if (Heavens forbid) we WERE attacked here post 9-11, the rationale would be "See? We HAD to attack Iraq. Those people are evil and we must eradicate from the earth after they bombed Chicago (put any other American City here). We can't stop now!"

In Bush's world, peace is for sissies.
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Updated On: 1/11/04 at 04:23 PM
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Frighteningly, Namo's sister's POV is *very* pervasive, be it the Hilary hatin' or the generalized fear-factor rationalization that we had to get him there, before he came here.
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I think Namo's sister voiced what many people think: that the war was a sound decision, despite it being sold to us precipitously and based on at best entirely unsound logic, at worst, lies. I'm personally sick of right wingers screaming "so you'd rather Saddam was still in power?!" as if I anything less than bloodthirsty zeal renders me a moral wimp, oblivious to his heinous acts (none of us are), or as if his capture has created a safer world (it has not). And as a leader of the world: as if plucking him from a spider hole justifies every duplicitous bit of behavior and rhetoric that lead to it, and from it.

I am more cynical than ever, and believe far too many people will view this latest news as "so what?" Ann Coulter-styled glibness re this hawk agenda is not unique. She baldly said "why NOT 'blood for oil' -- oil is important!" As I watch people tool around in their SUVs, flags stuck all over the bumpers, I don't doubt that many feel what Coulter voiced. Getting rid of a bad guy -- the one we COULD get (but not the one who did us dirty) -- helps people feel justified.
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Updated On: 1/11/04 at 04:36 PM
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I was going to post about this earlier but I've been busy.
You know I was watching some news show on Friday morning and there was a three second blurb about this. And I thought to myself "that's it"? This isn't the top story? This isn't plastered over the front page of every newspaper in America in big bold letters? Of course not.
Bush tricked the American people into thinking Iraq was a clear and present danger to the United States. So he got support for his war that is costing us billions of dollars and hundreds of lives. He's been caught in his lie several times but the US media tends not to make a bid deal of it. I just hope most people remember all of this come election day in November.
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It's because the media is controlled by liberals who are just out to get Bush.

Oh. Wait. That does not compute, that does not compute.

For what it's worth, it's front page on the Boston Globe.

It was up on the AP list for Excite.com under the "Furor over Michael Jackson 60 Minutes Interview" this morning. This afternoon, the Michael Jackson story is still listed, but the O'Neill story has fallen off.
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I'm sure some of you will be ready to pounce, and yes, no, I havent read anything except the headlines, and no I've no real interest in engaging in a heated debate with the few of you who thrive on arguing (you know who you are)....lol, those parameters set...here goes...

Ho hum, this is not news. Going to war with Iraq was inevitable and should have been in the planning stages with any responsible world leader long before 9/11. This item is similar to discovering plans to go to war with Hitler before we actually attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese.

The media is once again trying to make news where no real news exists.

Now, what really pisses me off is Al Sharpton being given any credibility by the news media as a Presidential candidate and subsequently my tax dollars being used to support this gentleman in his further bids to extend his never ending 15 minutes of fame, especially when he wasted my NYState tax dollars because of his imflamatory involvment in the Twanna Brawley non-sense plus his continual and never ending financial mess including an IRS audit and unpaid taxes. This gentlman should be barred from even attempting to run.

The horrendously liberal media should be greatly taken to task for promoting this insult to America.

Whew. That's it for now.

Bulldog.
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Speaking for myself, I am not surprised about this at all. From the beginning, with getting into office by “hanging chads” in the State where his BROTHER just happens to be governor, I’ve never liked him.

Clinton was no angel but he didn't drag the whole country down with his own personal agenda.

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Only read the headlines. Make comments on shows you haven't seen. This is what is wrong with so many people in this country. And it's CULTURAL. Convince the public that matters are too complicated to really grasp and to just sit back and leave the driving to people who will lie to you about why they are doing what they are doing. I know, it doesn't matter, they ALL lie.

It's especially disheartening coming from yet another person who berates others for not having standards. And then to dismiss any questions about the logic of that as ho-hum or boring or just a personal attack is disingenuous. Also, trying to control what is or is not discussable on a discussion board is patronizing at best.

"This item is similar to discovering plans to go to war with Hitler before we actually attacked at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese."

Actually, it is not, in the least. You want to know why? I'm sure you don't, but here's why. It is illegal for the President of the United States to declare war in a preemptive manner and it is very bad policy to have done so predicated on a pile of lies. And it's just ho-hum now because it's been practically a year and there's no real attention span in this country any more.

SO. VERY. SAD.

Yours for a better nation. One that really does what it says it stands for.
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Updated On: 1/11/04 at 05:44 PM
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"I'm sure some of you will be ready to pounce, and yes, no, I havent read anything except the headlines, and no I've no real interest in engaging in a heated debate..."

Yes as Namo said, how very sad. Commenting on something you admit you haven't really even read about and then telling no one to disagree with you. This is your country you're talking about..you SHOULD want to debate it's future. Instead to much of this country is just willing to sit back and let others take the wheel.
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"I'm sure some of you will be ready to pounce, and yes, no, I havent read anything except the headlines, and no I've no real interest in engaging in a heated debate..."

Or BUSINESS entering the discussion at all... especially with a hypothetical comparison to WWII.

I mean, if we're going to get hypothetical, what if Hitler had had x-ray vision and the power to fly and had seen the troops heading toward his bunker and flown out the back door? Maybe we shouldn't have unilaterally declared war on Iraq under false pretenses after rejecting the United Nations THEN, huh?
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for what it's worth, cbs has been hyping their interview with o'neill on 60 minutes tonight approximately every 17.6521 seconds by having everyone repeat the line that in cabinet meetings that bush was "like a blind man in a roomful of deaf people." verne lundquist musta used it 271 times during the colts game.
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Namo, you're predictable and tedious. I don't agree with you. Get over it. I glaze over your rantings against me and those against the others with whom you disagree.

All of us have the ability to post our thoughts and opinions and some of us do. Expressing an opinion doesn't entail marching on Washington.

Why don't you do some good and use your pen (or fingers) and fight injustice in the US, for example. Or on a smaller scale perhaps you should consider starting by demonstrating respect of others on this board and not just the ones whom you would define as sharing your opinions and worldview.

Personally I'm tired of your negative cries for attention and the rest of your crap. So bugger off!

One more thing, Bush's plans againt Iraq are not as imporant as whether Kristin or Idina will break out in laughter at the next performance. LOL.

Cheers!

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Namo, I agree with you on everything you and Auggie have said.. about Bush, Iraq, AND Bulldog... he berates others for anything he does not like, then tells on not to disagree, and then says all opinions are welcome and he gets upset when posts do not meet HIS standards.... a through and through Republican.
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Well, the interview was damning enough for me. O'Neill came across as earnest, but also as a little naive about the ballpark he's playing in. "I don't think they're going to come after me. Why would they do that when I'm just tellling the truth?" or something to that effect. He also seemed surprised that the 'portrait' he paints of Bush is unflattering..that's just a little scary. But I believe him when he tells his story. And there is a paper trail to substantiate what he says. The point was also made that he is receiving nothing monetarily, for making his story public.

I happened to pick up a copy of the February 2004 issue of Mother Jones a couple of hours ago, and lo and behold, the cover story is "The Lie Factory: Iraq". I'm going to go back and give it a more thorough reading, but what struck me during my quick read-through is that it is making the SAME point, but based on an entirely different set of sources. "Until now, the story of how the Bush administration produced its wildly exaggerated estimates of the threat posed by Iraq has never been revealed in full. But, for the first time, a detailed investigation by Mother Jones, based on dozens of interviews—some on the record, some with officials who insisted on anonymity—exposes the workings of a secret Pentagon intelligence unit and of the Defense Department's war-planning task force, the Office of Special Plans. It's the story of a close-knit team of ideologues who spent a decade or more hammering out plans for an attack on Iraq and who used the events of September 11, 2001, to set it into motion." The article also reinforces my impression of Bush as Cheney's puppet.

Interesting stuff. Wonder if this will all be swept under the rug, too.
Mother Jones "Lies" article
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Having started this thread, and having just watched the 60 minutes report ... I say, surely this is worthy of discourse. May it only continue, after pundits and others weigh in.

Did anyone read the Times sustained obit about the man who survived Somalia, then testicular cancer, only to die in Iraq? At a certain point, our debates about this soul-numbing war do need a human face. Please, don't post that "war is always about death..." I certainly know that. But a pre-emptive one of aggressive, based on old paternal vendetta and new oil contracts certainly makes one remember: a year ago, Aaron A. Weaver, a 32 year old soldier who cheated death twice, was alive and well, and raising his children. Because of decisions made before and after 9/11 -- for reasons that are ambiguous at best -- he is now gone forever.

Sometimes, the bottom line is in the small print. Mr. Weaver's name -- relegated to "human interest" footnote-on-the-war status -- should be a headline.
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Log Cabin Republicans...

You know the place, you know the password and the agenda.
She promises she'll be there.

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"Log Cabin Republicans...You know the place, you know the password and the agenda. She promises she'll be there."

Say what?
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