11 O'Clock number question- Page 4

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:08am

I dunno, Sondheim shows aren't really the "11 O'Clock Number Type" IMO...

For me, most of his shows, Sunday, Sweeney, A Little Night Music, etc, the whole show kind of acts as one 11 o'clock number in a different kind of way...

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:13am

I agree. I don't think most of his shows have 11:00 numbers in the traditional and conventional sense. Maybe "Being Alive" from COMPANY. Otherwise not so much.

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:17am

would you consider Miller's Son an 11 O'clock number? I might...

I'd hardly consider No One Is Alone one though. It hardly revitalizes the audience. (though I love the song)

I also wouldn't consider Back To Before one either. Isn't it mid act two? If anything it'd be Make Them Hear You, but that's not either.

Dirty Rotten Number I would disagree with as well. That's more the resolution I think. Isn't it the finale? I don't think DRS has one - if so it'd be where they're discussing how they got played (to keep spoilers out and for lack of a better phrase, lol) which also isn't an 11 O'clock number.

and No Good Deed for me falls into the...crap, I can't remember the name of that song type. But the example my prof. used was Evelyn Nesbit's "Girl On The Swing" - the songs that are like, forgotten in shows but are still good, semi-upbeat...anyone remember what htose are called? (crossing my fingers that Margos knows) Basically a song that's overshadowed by the big hit (ie: No Good Deed v. Defying Gravity, Popular) - he was telling us they'r egood songs to do becuase they're ususally not overdone but still from well known shows.

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:19am

That last paragraph made no sense whatsoever...

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:22am

Not sure at all what you're referring to. A "charm song" maybe?

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:26am

I dunno about that, I mean, the reason you can remember the name of all the songs in WICKED is cause the title of each song is repeated each song SO many times...

Schwartz really saved time with lyrics that way, not to mention saving time writing music by repeating melodies, in fact, I timed it, and WICKED has only 4 minutes of music in it, the other hour or so is transposed and everything, pretty amazing...

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:28am

in the class where we learned about 11 O'clock numbers, our professor also discussed other 'types' of songs. One of the 'categories' I can't remember the name of, but I would put No Good Deed in that category.

It's basically a category of songs that he defined as those that are overlooked in a show by the big hit, for example if you compare No Good Deed to Defying Gravity or even Popular. I'd imagine directors rarely hear people using No Good Deed at auditions nowadays, while everyone and their mama is bustin' out some Defying Gravity or even Popular.

He basically made us include this category in our audition binders becuase it'd help us find good songs from well-known shows that weren't overdone becuase they're often overlooked for or overshadowed by that one hit song from teh show that everyone wants to sing (and uses at auditions).

The example he used for this genre was Evelyn Nesbit's act one song in Ragtime, the title of which I believe is "Girl On The Swing". One quality he was telling us of these types of songs was that they're generally semi-uptempo. Another example might be....Jimmy from Thoroughly MOdern Millie; Heaven Help My Heart from Chess.

Does anyone know what you'd call that type of song? I can't remember for the life of me...I'm hoping Margo's following me here and knows what it's called...

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:30am

Actually, NO GOOD DEED is more widely done to the best of my knowledge in auditions...

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:34am

I honestly can't think of a formal name for the category of song you're describing.

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:37am

Do you have you acting binder with you?

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:38am

Margo - I actually think the name he gave was one he deemed himself probably. It's just bugging me now - I'll have to dig through my notes from taht class sometime...

Thesbijean - can I come live where you are? Except seriously though? Cause all my friends get up and sing Popular and Defying Gravity at kareoke all the time...and all my students...I'd love to hear some NGD every once in awhile.

I think I'd put Wizard and I in that category too actually...

I digress. Back to 11 O'Clock numbers - what is everyone's take/understanding regarding ballads as an 11 O'clock number? I've honestly never heard about this before and am intrigued as to how it fulfills the purpose of this genre...

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:38am

Haha, yes I do...

Seriously though, I probably sit in on at least 1-2 auditions every 2 weeks in NYC area for various musicals, and if I had to pick the song from WICKED done the most is would be NO GOOD DEED by a landslide...

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:42am

Well, "Memory" from CATS, "What I Did For Love" from ACL and "This Nearly Was Mine" from SOUTH PACIFIC are all ballad 11:00 numbers.

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:43am

This Nearly Was Mine gives me CHILLS every time I hear it, such a powerful song

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:51am

I guess my question is how does a ballad serve to awaken the audience? It seems like amongst all the conflict and rising action it wouldn't stand out I guess. I know the actor can do so by the way the song is played, but I just understood (and perhaps mistakingly so) a part of the 11 O'Clock number to be that it is awakening musically as well (which in my mind I associated with an uptempo).

[Theatreboy49]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 2:51am

if done correctly it does give me chills

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 3:07am

Same here, it's one of the best songs R&H ever wrote.

All the ballad songs listed have big finishes though, don't they?

Margo you totally beat me to the Loveland sequence from Follies. If that's not a finish, I don't know what is.

I forgot about "Make Them Hear You". I think it's pretty clearly the 11:00 number. It's not Mother's story, it's Coalhouse's. He's the main character, he has his big schmaltzy song, gets shot, the end. Epilogue.

I think some shows, rather than being huge star vehicles like Millie become difficult because they give several characters moments/songs of epiphany. Like in Into the Woods, there's "Moment in the Woods"-"Last Midnight"-"No More"-"No One is Alone", the big 11:00 number sequence, and then the finale. Follies has Loveland, Ragtime has "Back to Before" and "Make Them Hear You". Yeah, Company has "Ladies Who Lunch" but it's Bobby's story and not Joanne's so the 11:00 number goes to Bobby. Wicked goes us one better and makes it a duet for the two leading ladies so nobody's getting upset.

I don't think Avenue Q really has one. The whole second act just kind of peters out from nothing and goes nowhere. It doesn't build up enough dramatic momentum to have an 11:00 number. I think maybe "The More You Ruv Someone" is meant to be it?

It bugs me when the 11:00 number doesn't feel relevant but it bugs me worse when there's no clear end to the first act. I hate when a show just kind of stops and then you come back for the second act. It's like, why seperate it into acts then? That's just a structural thing though... acts aren't just there to allow for pee breaks!

If they got rid of anything for the Vegas production of Hairspray, I hope it was "I Know Where I'd Been".

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 3:42am

Rkrispyt, is the term you're looking for "novelty song?"

At any rate, your professor's 'philosophy' of what makes for good audition material sounds like uninformed opinion-mongering (THE GIRL IN THE SWING---please!).



Allison MacKenzie
Peyton Place, New Hampshire




Updated On: 2/12/06 at 03:42 AM

[blaxx]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 5:29am

I really think the 11 o'clock number in Wicked is "For Good" and not "No Good Deed"

[blaxx]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 5:29am

I really think the 11 o'clock number in Wicked is "For Good" and not "No Good Deed"

[rKrispyt]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 11:46am

EnchantedHunter - it might have been, I dunno. I'm over it, I'm gonna go look for it later maybe - it's stopped bugging me though that I can't remember, but thanks.

And it was just one of many categories of songs we learned about and were told to have 'one of those' types in your audition binder - and Girl In The Swing was just an example, my prof wasn't like "everyone needs to sing this song, it's amazing!"

[nealb1]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 11:51am

"If He Walked Into My Life Today" from "Mame" is the quintesstional....(sp?) 11 o'clock number. It's an absolute showstopper!!!

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 12:13pm

I think this thread makes clear that there is not really a definition of what an 11 o'clock number is. Musicals usually end around 11 now. Um. So rather than looking for a definition look to the examples.

Rose's Turn
What I Did For Love
Sit Down You're Rocking the Boat
Hello Dolly!

And most of the others listed previously. A classic 11 o'clock number comes pretty close to the end of the show, it's usually a roof raiser, and is usually a star spot(though, it is not always the main character). To argue the ACTUAL definition of an 11 o'clock number is really kinda foolish. Also, the whole point of Ragtime is that it is Coal House, Mother, and Tateh's story. I think Back to Before is the more traditional 11 o'clock number but Make Them Hear You is just as good. Also, The Ladies Who Lunch pretty much IS an 11 o'clock number. No matter who the main character is. It's a show stopper that comes late in the show (I've heard 11 o'clock number called the second to last song), a total show stopper, and a star highlight. So. It pretty much fits all the criteria.

kmc

[GClef2]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 12:17pm

Melissa Erric Fan: I am OBSESSED with "The Music Still Plays On" lately...it is absolutely amazing!

[jv92]

Posted: 2/12/06 at 1:27pm

Musical Comedies:
(Always usually ensembles and duets with rare exceptions- "If He Walked into My Life", "The Ladies Who Lunch", "Where Am I Going?")
-"Brush Up Your Shakespeare"
-"Dirty Rotten Number"
-"You're Just in Love"
-"Run Freedom Run"
-"Sit Down, You're Rocking the Boat"
-"The Brotherhood of Man"
-"The Best of Times"
-"Hello Dolly!"

Musical Dramas:
(Always usually big, dramatic solo numbers with rare exceptions, Lucy and Jessie in "Follies", Eager Beaver in "No Strings", Krupke in "West Side Story")
-"Back to Before"
-"No Good Deed"
-"You'll Never Walk Alone" (although the chorus is used, it is mostly a solo for Nettie)
-"This Nearly Was Mine" or "You've Got the Be Taught (Depends on what view you take)
-"Kiss of the Spider Woman"
-And the motherload of 11 O'Clockers..."Roses Turn"


Updated On: 2/12/06 at 01:27 PM