CAROUSEL on Live At Lincoln Center Tonight at 9PM!!- Page 6

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 9:13am

My first exposure to Carousel was when I was 11 or 12 and I went to see a community theatre production of the show. I remember being struck by both the Carousel Waltz and If I Loved You. At that age, the domestic violence issues definitely didn't resonate with me. A week later I saw the movie on television and was struck by how different it was. I didn't like it.

Although I enjoy most or Rodgers and Hammerstein's musicals, Carousel is definitely my favorite.

I had no intention of watching the rebroadcast yesterday since I taped it Friday night, but there I was watching and enjoying it.

[StageStruckLad]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:00am

I'll second the praise for James Snyder in the Goodspeed Carousel. I loved (loved loved) Michael Hayden's acting in the Lincoln Center production, but he didn't really have the vocal chops for Billy. Snyder's "Soliloquy" was thrilling and one of the most dynamic I've heard. The audience jumped to their feet at the end of the number.

Of course, it probably helped that he was doing it in a theater that only holds 200 people.

How I wish that Nicolas Hytner would make a movie of Carousel. Preferably NOT with Hugh Jackman. And if we have to have Jackman as Billy, please let him pre-record his numbers so they can fix them digitally. I don't want to hear him straining to hit the notes a la Jean Valjean.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:07am

One of the many things I like about this particular thread is that in regarding folks' interpretations of how Carousel might be interpreted on stage, everybody's "right".

Depending on a director's vision for the show, Carousel can be staged using a lighter, more "palatable" tone, OR from a darker, harder perspective. The specific details regarding who these characters really are is left open for interpretation.

Speaking personally, I didn't take the "white trash"/"Jerry Springer" analogy too literally. I assumed the OP was referring to a demeanor of "condescension" from the characters whose social status placed them "above" characters like Billy, Julie and Carrie.

For those folks who liked the full orchestral sound in the PBS concert, I'd like to recommend the John Wilson Orchestra version of the Carousel Waltz. You can see a YouTube clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnpta0ALwEU.

IMO, John Wilson's concert versions of musicals, done for the BBC Proms, are the gold standard to live up to. As a conductor, he is incredibly gifted. His orchestra's "Carousel Waltz" has so much more "life" than the lackluster "note-by-note" version played by the NY Philharmonic. You can even see the physical vitality that orchestra members exude as they play in the clip above. That kind of energy comes through in the music.

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:23am

Wow, thanks for posting that! I've listened to it three times already.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 10:23 AM

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 11:27am

> "Wow, thanks for posting that! I've listened to it three times already."

I'm so happy you enjoyed that as much as I do! Although the sound quality is not as good in a YouTube clip, you can listen to the Proms concerts live on BBC radio, over the net. (It's usually BBC2 or BBC3). The live radio broadcasts are usually much better quality.

Here's a couple more examples from John Wilson Prom concerts (I can only guess how magnificent these concerts would be were I an audience member!):

MAME (Proms 2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS8g67n-rPg

Sierra Boggess, Falling in Live With Love (Proms 2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcd4U7ohdUk

[wickedfan]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 11:31am

In the show, during that time period with that kind of social hierarchy, Billy and Julie are, indeed, white trash. That's not saying that poor people are white trash. But in Carousel, to people like Mr. Bascombe, who thinks of Julie merely as an employee (if you think for a second he actually cares about her and not her reflection on him when he offers to bring her back to the mill, you're giving Bascombe too much credit), they are absolutely the lowest you can get just short of a street beggar. Even when Billy HAD a job, it was as a carousel barker in a traveling carnival. That's fascinating and dangerous to young women, especially those who wouldn't mind one quick night of passion that would be forgotten as soon as the carnival moves on to the next town, but in no way is it a respectable occupation. The fact that being a barker is all that Billy knows and likes speaks volumes about his incompetence. He's not a bad person. But in terms of where he stands in that society, he's just about the lowest. Once Julie marries him, any social standing she might have had (which is just barely above Billy) is gone.

I really do hate it when Julie is portrayed as somewhat classy and dignified. It really clouds the audience's perception of where Julie stands in life and what her prospects are. If she's so refined and level-headed, why would she choose to stay with Billy and lose her job? If Mr. Bascombe is SUCH a nice man that he's willing to give Julie a second chance (that's sarcasm, as Mr. Bascombe isn't a nice man, he's a God-fearing business man), why wouldn't she go with him? Julie is young and lonely and can't see anything in her future that would give her any happiness. She clearly could marry if she chose, as there's an indication that she had some sort of a beau once ("A fella you went walking with"), but she never loved him and couldn't bring herself to move the relationship any further than walking "nowhere special." In Billy, she sees a kindred lonely spirit who might be the one bit of happiness she'll ever know in her cold, sad life. And so, with a bit of skepticism and embarrassment, she chooses to stay and enjoy her fifteen minutes of happiness.

That entire "If I Loved You" scene is a masterpiece of confusion, longing, frustration, sexual tension and danger that concludes with (what should be) a very passionate kiss. In the Hytner production, the final 30 seconds were staged with Billy and Julie falling into each other's arms, the grassy knoll they were on slowly moving backwards, the entire stage dark with the exception of a single spotlight on the two of them that was getting smaller and smaller, all the while Billy and Julie clinging to each other as if they feared they would fall into the darkness, should they let go. It was a great moment foreshadowing why the two would stay together until Billy's untimely death. Their relationship might be toxic to each other, but they're all that each other has. Let go, and there's nothing but darkness surrounding.

Billy is, to be blunt, a bum. But he's aware of that ("What can I do for her? I'm a bum with no money") and it eats him up inside. To Billy, he once had the perfect life. He had a low pressure, no responsibility job that allowed him to make money, drink free beer and charm women and sometimes even bed them with no consequences. The one string attached was that he would have to sometimes sleep with his boss. Not at all a setback for someone like Billy who always found sex and women a carefree pleasure that was quickly forgotten after it was done. For him to go from that to a situation where he is now responsible for two people, where he has to rely on the kindness of his wife's female cousin who has her own business and him making no money or working at any kind of a job, knowing that everyone around looks down upon him for it, just about kills Billy inside. He wants to provide for Julie, but he just doesn't know how. And every time they're together he's reminded of how he's doing nothing for the woman he loves. That hatred towards himself builds up inside of him as a pressure cooker, making him explode at inopportune times and taking it out on the people he cares about. It doesn't make him a hero, but it does makes him human.

Billy and Julie absolutely are relatable to Stella and Stanley in Streetcar, though I would say that Streetcar is more outright in the dialogue about their sexual attraction and as to why Stella stays. "If Loved You" isn't a meet cute and "What's the Use of Wondrin" isn't another "Can't Help Lovin That Man." They are about, respectively, the culmination of two souls finding solace in a cold world and of the resolution of having to accept it when that solace isn't perfect or even enough because in the end, it's really all you have. This is all the more tragic considering how young Julie and Billy are. What made Murphy and Hayden and (from the footage I saw) Wicks and Snyder so effective, was that their melancholy came from the foresight of knowing they had a future of nothing ever getting better, as opposed to the many years of life experience that eventually taught them that.

This concert was perhaps the most glorious sounding Carousel we're likely to ever hear. But it didn't touch on ANY of these aspects of the show. The score was given a 5 star treatment, while the book was essentially given the shaft (I found some of the book edits to really be atrocious). That said, I would love to see O'Hara and Mueller play Julie and Carrie in a fully realized production as I think both have the makings to be terrific in the parts but as it stood in this concert, which despite the costumes and semi-staging was REALLY all it was, they were essentially the outlines of what could be fantastic performances.

[StageStruckLad]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 11:36am

Very nice analysis, WickedFan. I still get chills thinking about that staging for If I Loved You from the Lincoln Center show. What an amazing production that was.

[eatlasagna]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:10pm

i know it's been said before... but remind me again... why aren't they able to put this on DVD?

[Kelly2]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:12pm

Isn't it something to do with contracts and unions and money? Then again, isn't it always?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:16pm

Finally saw it and loved it from first note to last. By 1887 standards, the leading man is very handsome, indeed, but far more important was that he SINGS handsomely.

I was struck by how operatic the show felt. (I'm talking about dramatic structure, not the fact that they cast some operatic performers.) And I thought of how many other shows from the 1940s (BRIGADOON, STREET SCENE, GOLDEN APPLE, etc.) seem to be wandering toward the line of grand opera.

I wonder if writers in the first decade after OKLAHOMA! were still searching for the dividing line between opera and serious "musical play"...

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 4:27pm

^Hello Gaveston, what did you think of the ballet choreographed by Warren Carlyle?

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 04:27 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:01pm

Musical Master, I enjoyed the music and was bored out of my mind with the dancing. For one thing, I am always more interested in the relationship between Louise and Enoch, Jr., than I am with the circus fantasy.

Agnes de Mille and her descendants almost always rub me the wrong way. (And don't even get me started on my experience of her personally.)

I readily admit that this is entirely my problem. I have no criticism of those who enjoyed the ballet.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:03pm

^Don't worry, I found the ballet in this one quite boring as well despite such great dancers. I guess I was never a fan of Warren Carlyle anyway. Which choreographer do you think would've made the ballet more interesting?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:19pm

PJ, thank you so much for the youtube clips of John Raitt. MY GOD, THAT VOICE!

John was 59 when I worked with him and still he held his own vocally with Larry Kert (who had his own fine set of pipes, I'm sure you'll agree). To me, John was the best operetta baritone of our lifetimes. (Yes, I know he could also sing many tenor roles.)

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:19 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:29pm

Musical Master, dance is my least favorite of the musical theater elements, so I'm really not qualified to answer your question. But I don't like the choreography in the film either and I think that was deMille. There is just something precious about her work in the musicals I've seen. (I don't know her work in the dance world.)

Basically, I like tap, Fosse and the like, none of which, we'll agree, is appropriate for CAROUSEL.

***

adam.peterson, I think you missed Billy's redemption when it came. In the first place, he DOES show himself to Louise, but she quite naturally is suspicious of a stranger bearing gifts. But the star he leaves behind reveals his presence to Julie.

And when he tells Julie he loves her--for the first time in the show and she clearly hears his voice--he drops his false pride and admits what is in his heart. THAT (like it or not) is Billy's redemption.

***

A question for those who memorize librettos: did CAROUSEL always contain so many excuses and explanations of Billy's bad behavior? He must explain that he only hit Julie once and didn't "beat her" to at least four people. Everyone in town has heard he "beats" his wife and acts as if he is a mass murderer.

Was that just overemphasis by modern-day actors or did they actually add lines to the libretto to make it clear the play doesn't condone domestic violence?



Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:29 PM

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:38pm

^That's alright, I'm glad you liked the concert (the songs, story and actors) I know I did. :)

[wickedfan]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:40pm

Gaveston-It's in the libretto. During the discussion between Carrie and Julie, Carrie says Julie would leave Billy if he's beating her saying that he's "a bad'n" to which Julie replies that "he ain't meaningly or willingly bad." It's also mentioned again in the scene between Billy and Mrs. Mullin where she says Billy should just leave Julie as "there's no point in hitting the little thing," to which Billy is fired up. And then of course the scene between the Starkeeper and Billy and between Louise and Enoch Jr. The script goes out of its way to say that Billy hitting Julie was wrong. The only thing added in this concert was during Julie's speech to Billy pre-"You'll Never Walk Alone," she says "I know why you hit me. You were quick tempered and unhappy" and then they added a "But that doesn't make it right."

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 5:57pm

Thank YOU, wickedfan. What a memory!

I have to admit that watching last night, the domestic violence was like the obvious alcoholism in COMPANY (yes, this time I do mean COMPANY) or the racism in SHOW BOAT.

I just took it as indicative of the period and went along for the ride.

***

Music Master, I certainly did enjoy it. Ballets don't bother me, they just aren't usually the highlight of a show for me. (Though if I'd seen CAROUSEL with de Mille's original ballet of over an hour, I might have needed restraints.)

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 05:57 PM

[Wildcard]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 6:15pm

The 94 Broadway production of Carousel is one of my favorite productions ever. I wish this is what had been broadcast on Live at Lincoln Center instead
Carousel 1994

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 7:00pm

In the 1994 LCT revival, Billy in his ghost form spoke aloud, "No!" when Julie told Louise that it was indeed possible for someone to hit you hard and it not hurt at all. That was not in the original book as was the "But that doesn't make it right!" uttered by Julie over Billy's corpse in the NY Phil version as pointed out by the poster above.

Updated On: 4/29/13 at 07:00 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:13pm

I thought the poster's point was that "But that doesn't make it right" was also a modern addition.

I'm looking at the first published edition of 1953 and there are very few lines explaining away Billy's violence. Julie tells Carrie about it, but says it didn't hurt. Billy takes offense when Mrs. Mulligan says she's heard he "beats" his wife; Billy makes a strong distinction between on hit and "beating". And there's the famous exchange with Louise about a slap feeling like a kiss.

And that's it. I admit I'm skimming but it seems to me that all the other references to how Billy didn't hit so hard and really feels bad about it, but that does make it right--come from later revision of the libretto. Updated On: 4/29/13 at 10:13 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:24pm

OK I'm confused... "Agnes de Mille and her descendants almost always rub me the wrong way. (And don't even get me started on my experience of her personally.) "

But this wasn't remotely in the DeMille vocabulary--like I said I wish they had just used her choreography (of course she had other parts that were cut here, like the extended dance sequence for June, which used to be on youtube in a Dance Machine recreation, but is gone.) Of course I *am* a huge DeMille fan, and I think what she did with her 40s musical work is pretty important--but I do agree with you about what I've heard of her personality.

One of the myriad of sins of the movie version is that--due to their experiences making the Oklahoma! movie with her--DeMille wasn't asked back. The replacement choreography is subpar--though of course they essentially DID recreate her choreography for Louise's ballet (to which DeMille--in this case quite rightly--sued.)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 10:38pm

Eric, please read above. I wrote in every possible way that I am neither an authority on nor a great lover of dance, so why would you value my opinion enough to get confused?

To me, the choreography from the Philharmonic production looked vaguely like de Mille choreography I've seen before: neither free-form and organic nor exactly classical ballet, but some pretentious mishmash of both. But if you tell me I'm wrong, I will bow to your knowledge.

As for de Mille's IMPORTANCE, I can't imagine that anyone would deny that. I certainly wouldn't.

As for her personality, I worked for her during auditions for the 1980s revival of BRIGADOON for ONE STINKIN' DAY. I had nothing to do except wait on her hand and foot and was thrilled to do so out of respect for her historical importance. Why she need to be the biggest b**tch on wheels, I have no idea. It's not as if I ever told her "no".

In fairness, she was in her mid-70s by then and partially crippled, so maybe her meanness came from discomfort. (And good for her on the lawsuit.)

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 2:07am

Iguess when I think of DeMille's dance vocabulary, I especially mean the very stylized--and extremely distinct way she uses arms andhands.

I've always wondered if Carousel's ballet truly did run over an hour in previews--though I've heard that before. It just seems like--well surely it had to be an exageration, no?

By all reports DeMille--a difficult lady from the start--did get nearly mpossible to work with in the last decades of her life.

[AddisonMizner]

Posted: 4/30/13 at 6:54am

I have just watched this CAROUSEL on the PBS website, and all I can say is WOW! It was a stunning watch. I don’t think I have enough superlatives for this performance. It was the most gloriously sung and played CAROUSEL I think I have ever heard. To hear a full orchestra playing that beautiful score (and the New York Philharmonic no less) is thrilling. All the parts were cast to perfection and the whole thing was beautifully acted and sensitively directed. There was nothing in the performances that were forced or fake and it was the smallest of details that made it truly breathtaking. It didn’t even seem like a semi-staged performance. On the contrary, the fact that there was no real scenery made the piece really speak for itself, and proves that you don’t need a flashy staging to hold an audience’s interest. I had shivers through most of it (something which doesn’t happen to me very often) and I was blubbing like a baby throughout (particularly at the end). My only other exposure to CAROUSEL is via the film, which while also brilliant, isn't a patch on this concert staging. Does anyone know if there any plans to release it on DVD or Blu-ray in the near future?