New YouTube etcRules: A Question
New YouTube etcRules: A Question
mpw607
Stand-by Joined: 10/6/05
#1New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 6:41pm
I notice the new guidelines. But how do we know what's copyright and what isn't? The clips don't tell us! If for example there's a relevant clip from a TV show in the 60s, is it OK to post or not? Some clips get removed quickly while others stay on for months.
Do the new rules permit anything more than "amateur hour" to be linked in BWW?
#2re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 6:45pm
If you link to a video where it looks like it was recored by a cam corder in the audience (grainy, unprofessional look) then it is an illegal bootleg.
If you link to a video and it looks like the Show Preview videos at BroadwayWorld.tv, then they are probably OK.
"The Spectacle has, indeed, an emotional attraction of its own, but, of all the parts, it is the least artistic, and connected least with the art of poetry. For the power of Tragedy, we may be sure, is felt even apart from representation and actors. Besides, the production of spectacular effects depends more on the art of the stage machinist than on that of the poet."
--Aristotle
--Aristotle
#2re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 6:50pm
I think it's more "if it's a video of you talking or messing about or singing thirty seconds or so of a song, then that's fine", whereas a video featuring any material that you do not own (TV, music, film, theatre, whatever) is not legit and not allowed.
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#3re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 7:05pm
I think it's more "if it's a video of you talking or messing about or singing thirty seconds or so of a song, then that's fine"
But is it? On a purely technical level, if that song is copyrighted, singing it or using it without permission in any way is a copyright violation, right?
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Updated On: 3/29/07 at 07:05 PM
colleen_lee
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/16/05
#4re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 7:18pm
"But is it? On a purely technical level, if that song is copyrighted, singing it or using it without permission in any way is a copyright violation, right?"
But, again, is it? If you own the sheet music or a karaoke track, is making a home video of an impromptu performance that isn't for a profit a violation of copyright?
"You just can't win. Ever. Look at the bright side, at least you are not stuck in First Wives Club: The Musical. That would really suck. "
--Sueleen Gay
#5re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 7:20pm
That's why I said thirty seconds or so. I could well be misremembering this, but on a conversation long ago on these very boards, it was agreed that if you were putting up samples of you singing clips of songs on a website, up to thirty seconds or so was considered to be covered by Fair Use. Any more and it really did get into serious copyright issues.
colleen_lee
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/16/05
#6re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 7:21pmCause again, if these type of clips violate copyright, would not the entire BWW idol competition that went on last year also violate copyright? And that was obviously permitted to continue.
"You just can't win. Ever. Look at the bright side, at least you are not stuck in First Wives Club: The Musical. That would really suck. "
--Sueleen Gay
#7re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/29/07 at 7:25pmIf that were true, wouldn't daretosing.com be in big trouble then?
"I have a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell!"
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#8re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 9:01am
I found Wikipedia.'s take on Fair Use, so that should be taken with a grain of salt.
Perhaps we should email a moderator directly, since none have seemed to be around since the ban was lifted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Updated On: 3/30/07 at 09:01 AM
sondhead
Broadway Star Joined: 10/25/06
#9re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 9:03am
"If you link to a video and it looks like the Show Preview videos at BroadwayWorld.tv, then they are probably OK."
Umm.. unless it was posted by the show's producers, that would still be pretty illegal.
#10re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 9:25amAs I say with anyone who asks about the posting of photos (if it's too risque or inappropriate or whatever) - use your best judgement. If in DOUBT - don't post it. Not a terribly difficult concept. If you think it's going against board guidelines (whether it's this subject or any of the guidelines) - probably better not to post. OR... if you do... know that there's a good chance it may be deleted. And if it is deleted, don't be offended or think that you're being singled out or whatnot.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#11re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 9:27am
It still might be helpful if there were a few more specific guidelines, especially about the use of songs in videos, because common sense tells me that they aren't acceptable, but that's what's been flooding the boards since the ban was lifted.
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Updated On: 3/30/07 at 09:27 AM
#12re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 9:29amAgain.. if you think it violates, don't post it.. or if you do, know that it could be deleted. I don't know why this is any more complicated than usage of quoting, photos, obscenity, etc.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#13re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 9:32am
But people don't know if it violates and furthermore, people don't care (see the "Youtube Theatre Videos Thread"). I would think posting people singing copyrighted songs is a violation, but it would seem most posters don't. That's why I was asking. I don't know why a clear cut answer can't be provided.
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
Updated On: 3/30/07 at 09:32 AM
sidjones09
Leading Actor Joined: 1/4/07
#14re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 10:24am
There are a million different scenarios for various copyright infringement. So what's wrong with BWW saying if you feel the NEED to post a video A) use your best judgement and B) if we feel that it is a copyright violation we will remove it for you. That allows for several safegaurds and screening levels.
No one's going to jail here folks.
If you're so worried about it, just don't post videos.
*edited for spelling*
"If you've got something to say, say it, and think well of yourself while you're learning to say it better." - David Mamet
Updated On: 3/30/07 at 10:24 AM
Kringas
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/27/05
#15re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 10:29amI'm not worried, just curious.
"How do you like THAT 'misanthropic panache,' Mr. Goldstone?" - PalJoey
markymatt
Understudy Joined: 3/18/05
#16re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 10:32am
Does this thread kind of explain why BWW prefered to have the rule: "no links to youtube" ?
Updated On: 3/30/07 at 10:32 AM
Fenchurch
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/16/06
#17re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 11:16am
You cannot leave these (very vague) questions of legality for your users to be the arbiter of.
BWW should either alllow all or none of Youtube posts then, it's irresponsible of the moderators to put the onus on the users, there is no way they can know or not know for sure, and then punishing them by singling them out is unfair as well.
It's a very "culture of fear" kind of thing to do, and I thought BWW was above that. It's a fairly cheap way of absolving BWW of the liability and placing the policing in the hands of the users, which just has users spying on other users about what they post after a while, and that's no way to build a community, even an online one.
And the legalty of it has already been decided. It is not illegal to LINK to copyrighted material, as I remember it.
And then there is this: What if someone doesn't post the actual video from Youtube but instead posts the search terms that will lead them to the video in question.
It's really academic, if you making linking to copyrighted material against the rules, then BWW should ban the search terms that lead to them as well, because they are basically links too. It's a slippery slope.
You can't punish a third party for whatever crimes you think Youtube might be guilty for.
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual."
-Keen on Kean
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl
Updated On: 3/30/07 at 11:16 AM
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl
#18re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 11:34am
Fenchurch
I honestly think you need to take a deep deep breath and relax. The policy and explanation for that policy has been stated. Again - if you are in question of whether or not a video you want to post is in violation of the rules of this board - simply don't post it. Or if you do, know that it might be removed.
It is NO different than any other posting guideline and I am baffled why you are taking this one to task so vehemently.
It's not irresponsible in the slightest for the moderating team here to set up guideline and expect that the users will adhere to them. There's no additional onus on anyone.
There's no culture of fear hear or one being created by this policy - and certainly not one that doesn't exist across the board. This board, while it has moderators, is also open to the entire world including its posters. That already means that every post is under the scruting of anyone reading it. Your comment about this guideline "turning users into spies" is completely invalid because that situation always exists in real life and on any internet site. It's not new or unique. That's not our intention for this community - but it's a REAL WORLD reality that people will always report threads, content or whatever to whoever runs the site if they find it objectionable. We don't live in a protective bubble.
I'm sorry if you have issues with our posting guidelines and policies. With over 100,000 visitors daily, so far you've been the only one to have any major issue (not question, but issue) with it.
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
Fenchurch
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/16/06
#19re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 11:38am
I'm just bringing up issues that I have with this policy, I dont intend to break the rules, but know that your policy is flawed.
So I assume that if one posts the search terms that lead to a copyrighted clip on Youtube that is fine, as long as one doesn't post the actual link?
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual."
-Keen on Kean
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl
#22re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 1:10pm
So, are these our new rules?
http://www.voicesforrent.com/voices/index.html?fuseaction=news.shownews&news_id=32
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
#21re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 1:18pm
Are you being sarcastic?
The guidelines have always been posted at top of the message boards via this link: https://forum.broadwayworld.com/guide.cfm
But in case you don't want to click, I've posted them below:
Please post with courtesy (and common sense) - no use of profanity, obscenities, or name calling.
No personal attacks - we all have different opinions - disagree with the view, not with the person.
For your own protection, please - no bootleg appeals!
Please don't post press releases... You can add them to our news engine here!
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"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
millie_dillmount
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/22/04
#23re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 4:02pmWhat about references to the "site that must not be named"?
"We like to snark around here. Sometimes we actually talk about theater...but we try not to let that get in our way." - dramamama611
Fenchurch
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/16/06
#23re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 11:33pm
Both my postings and another's postings about this policy including legitimate issues have been deleted without notice. There was no profanity, personal attack or other boad behaviour, just pointing out the flaws in the policy, but these posts have been deleted.
"We reserve the right to revoke posting privileges at any time, for any reason and without notice. We also reserve the right to modify or remove any post, topic or message for any reason, without notice or explanation. "
But no answer as to WHY those postings were deleted. We all know you can do whatever you want, but WHY delete posts questioning your policies? If they are that clear and common sensical, then why the subterfuge and deletion?
You saw there is no culture of fear here, Craig, but the moderators actions belie those previous exhortations.
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual."
-Keen on Kean
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl
Updated On: 3/31/07 at 11:33 PM
"Fenchurch is correct, as usual." - muscle23ftl
#24re: New YouTube etcRules: A Question
Posted: 3/30/07 at 11:46pm
Fenchurch, I've explained it twice (at least). I find your lack of understanding tiring now in addition to reaking of hypocricy given this comment you made on another post
"It really frightens me when this Rules Are Rules attitude becomes to prevalent. Its like people can't make decisions for themselves anymore. USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT PEOPLE "
I've said that in this thread twice. So in a theater you should use your own judgement but not on a message board?
Very telling...
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men" - Willy Wonka
