Thoughts on the Hamilton non-whites notice

Posted: 4/1/16 at 10:23pm

Let me start this post by saying I am a white person and I am certainly not writing this post to argue that white actors and singers need more representation on Broadway. I saw Hamilton a few weeks ago while agreeing with all the critical acclaim the show's been showered with this year and last, I was most moved by how Lin and his creative team have crafted a story that is so universal no one even blinks when Christopher Jackson, a very talented actor, portrays George Washington as a black man.  You immediately recognize the poignancy of what they have created....this great country was made not just by white Europeans, but by our great grandparents across all races. So when I read the news about Hamilton posting their casting notices with the phrase non whites I was a bit shocked...the very message of their show is one of racial inclusion.  I figured that the show would eventually have an Asian George Washington, a Middle Eastern, an Indian, maybe even a female George Washington. Needless to say I was a bit disappointed by this wonderful idea they had created somehow being damaged by the exclusion of whites that I'm not sure would ruin the message of this wonderful Broadway show if one day they did play the historic character....am I missing the point of the show or does this exclusion of certain races go against it's very mission statement. Interested in thoughts without raging a war here.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 10:39pm

Yes, actually, it seems that you ARE missing the point of the show. The point of the casting is NOT to include people of all races. The point is to include people of color specifically. It's not about inclusion, it's about Americans of color claiming American history in a way that they have been previously denied. 

 

This is just one of many examples of white people crying about "reverse racism," and being upset that there is a mainstream popular thing that they are not allowed to be a part of (with a few exceptions like King George).

Updated On: 4/1/16 at 10:39 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 10:44pm

Miranda's story is not one of inclusion, it is the story of America then told by America now. The power is in the reclaiming of the American narrative, viz. of the birthright, by those who were excluded from being (sons and) daughters of the American Revolution. And the excluded were not white. 

[laughingplace]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 10:50pm

We complain about everything.

We complained about how noises off had no diverse casting.

And now we complain there is no white casting.

We are just a pack of losers that seem to think that everything is bad, 

Updated On: 4/1/16 at 10:50 PM

[laughingplace]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 10:57pm

HogansHero said: "Miranda's story is not one of inclusion, it is the story of America then told by America now. The power is in the reclaiming of the American narrative, viz. of the birthright, by those who were excluded from being (sons and) daughters of the American Revolution. And the excluded were not white. 

 

Yes that true.  But when you have the first composer to solely get a tony not that long ago. I hardly think that Broadway is one of inclusion. I think tix prices are far too high. I think its very middle white america looking at issues they could not possibly comrpehand (spelled  wrong on purpose) . I am personally sick of the typical disabled guy being lied to and at the end triumphing at the end.

 

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 11:04pm

When the rights get released for high schools and community theatres to preform it in 15 years you'll get to see a white person playing Thomas Jefferson and George Washington? Okay? Anyway white people are in the ensemble. 

 

The show is meant to be a retelling from a person of colour view point. I think a lot of the audiences miss the point judging from the reaction to the casting notice. I mean you did notice none of the principle characters in the current cast besides king George are white? To be honest though I'm sure down the line they will probably cast one or 2 white people in the main roles maybe on tour or something. 

Updated On: 4/3/16 at 11:04 PM

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 11:24pm

WHITE PEOPLE: *write and cast themselves into billions of shows*

NOT-WHITE PEOPLE: *write and cast themselves into one show*

WHITE PEOPLE: hey you can't do that that's discrimination!!!

[rcwr]

Posted: 4/1/16 at 11:52pm

WHITE PEOPLE: *write and cast themselves into billions of shows*

NOT-WHITE PEOPLE: *write and cast themselves into one show*

WHITE PEOPLE: hey you can't do that that's discrimination!!!

 

EXACTLY.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:00am

laughingplace said: "Yes that true.  But when you have the first composer to solely get a tony not that long ago. I hardly think that Broadway is one of inclusion. I think tix prices are far too high. I think its very middle white america looking at issues they could not possibly comrpehand (spelled  wrong on purpose) . I am personally sick of the typical disabled guy being lied to and at the end triumphing at the end."

I'd love to know what you are trying to say. But:

1. Sentence structure in English: Subject/Verb/Object

2. Sequiturs=good, Non-sequiturs=bad. 

3. "I think tix prices are too high." Now THAT is a sentence. Yay. You can do it! Now let's work on relating it to something else.

Get back to me at your leisure.

[hork]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:05am

standingovation79 said: Interested in thoughts without raging a war here.

 

So much for that. 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 1:10am

HogansHero said: "I'd love to know what you are trying to say."

Seriously, wtf is he talking about. typical disabled guy? comrpehand (spelled wrong on purpose)? first composer to solely get a tony not that long ago?

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 1:53am

I think many people seem to be missing the problem with the casting notice, which, as the Equity memo implied, is not that the powers that be in the show PREFER to cast people of color in those roles, but that they won't even let anyone else audition.

Before someone calls me a racist, I will repeat that I favor increasing opportunities for persons of color, and I don't believe in race-blind casting when its effect to take a role away from a person of color and to cast a white actor instead. Yet, it's often hard to figure out who is a person of color for casting purposes -- a Latino with the blond hair? A dark-skinned Arab guy who is probably experiencing lots of bigotry but is technically white? If "person of color" in a casting notice means that any minority person can audition, does that mean a Japanese-American woman can play a black character?

I'm only raising questions, and not suggesting specific answers. However, it's important to keep an eye on the ball, which is that we want to give more opportunities to people who need them. Does a blond-haired, blue-eyed Hispanic need the extra opportunities? Probably not, because she looks white.

If a show tries to eliminate white people from even auditioning, you're going to wind up both with discrimination suits and arguments because Joe Schmo, who has an Indian great-grandparent, is eligible for a tribal card, but John Smith, who also has an Indian great-grandparent, is not, because that tribe requires that someone have an Indian grandparent, and not only a great-grandparent.

The only way to travel through these shark-infested waters is to remain flexible so that rare exceptions to the general rule are possible but not common. Absolute rules sometimes lead to absurd results. By the way, these arguments do indeed occur -- I've seen the nitpicky decisions that come out of SBA's 8(a) appeals.

[Alex10]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 1:59am

AHLiebross said: If "person of color" in a casting notice means that any minority person can audition, does that mean a Japanese-American woman can play a black character?

 

 

"

Doubtful, because in a casting call for a role that specific, it probably would say "black" rather than "person of color". With Hamilton, the goal of the show is to have people of color playing the Founding Fathers (and company) to "put them in the narrative" that all people of color, regardless of race, have historically been excluded from. Same deal for any of the casting here- I can't help but feel like you're reading too much into this in order to find a reason to let white people audition. According to the vision of the show, any person of color would be acceptable in these roles if they were the right fit acting-wise. White actors wouldn't, because it goes against the creative point of the show. Simple as that.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 10:16am

@AHLiebross,

Anyone can audition. No one was kept from auditioning. The casting notice has been corrected so much of what you have written is not only moot in this case but unlikely to recur in another. 

Diversity and minority opportunity are very important, but casting a show in the best way possible-from all fronts-trumps everything. Sometimes that means color blind (John Douglas Thompson is not repeatedly cast in white roles because he is black) and sometimes that means color-specific (whether from the Hamilton perspective or from that of Raisin in the Sun).

[MegBroadway]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 10:47am

My first thought when I saw the posting was a half-hearted "shoot, guess I can't audition" - my imagination takes me on rides when I sing "Satisfied" so passionately in the shower on the daily. And I'm a white twenty-something. That said, I've been thinking a lot about this- while the show itself does not say anything specific about race, it is clearly an integral part of the way this story is meant to be told. This perspective is so important. No one blinks an eye at shows like The Color Purple or Hairspray that may have very specific racial casting (I haven't seen casting calls, I'm only assuming based on subject matter). Hamilton is only slightly more subtle in its deeper meaning when it comes to race, and in the show's very young age, it should continue to be represented in its original vision. 

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 11:36am

Why does this argument keep being brought up?  It's not for you.  Get over it.

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 11:45am

Personally I take no issue with this.  There is an intent behind the casting.  A cultural observation is being made through the show and its casting.  And as has been mentioned, there are a white people in the cast, so if a white person really wants to be in the show, they can audition.  They may not get cast as the lead, since the creators have another idea in mind to fulfill the purpose of the show, but that's how it is.  

[pupscotch]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 11:49am

I think a lot of it is because Hamilton is so popular, so the white people complaining about it are complaining because they would want to be in it because it's the current big thing. The casting in Hamilton is not necessarily race-specific, but it does require a person of color based on the wishes of the director and composer. Those wishes should be respected, and we white people have enough opportunities and parts we can play. Those complaining about it need to leave the parts written for people of color to people of color.

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:12pm

Personally I found myself mesmerized by Christopher Jackson as Washington.  I was so enthralled by his acting I wasn't even looking at a black actor portraying George Washington.  It was like I was hearing the words of George Washington, regardless of who was playing him.  He did such a fine job.  

In fact, I was so captivated by the story to such a degree that the backgrounds of the actors portraying these historic characters and the way in which they were telling the story (rap and hip hop) became almost invisible to me.  I almost hesitate to say this because I don't want to lose or disconnect from the purpose of the show and its casting.

It was just so well done.  Not only was a creative purpose being fulfilled by LMM, but it was done with a remarkable fluidity and huge levels of talent.  What a great show!

[Randomlink1]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:35pm

It's not an issue. Nobody complains when white people are asked to interview for musicals. Nobody would bat an eye if they sought out caucasians to play the leads in 1776. Yet, as soon as they ask for POC to play the roles, it's apparently the equivalent to the racist nature of the world before the civil rights movement. They asked for caucasian people to audition for Bright Star. Where's the controversy surrounding that? Why is it that as soon as POC get an opportunity to play a part, people get all pissy about it. It would be like saying that Hairspray was discriminatory since they asked Black people to play the black roles, and they didn't care about how they didn't want black people to play the roles that are white people. Because both are non-issues, but they only care when white people are not being given specific roles.

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 12:35 PM

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 12:59pm

"I would have been a huge star if HAMILTON had only cast some white people."

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 2:23pm

People also have to remember a lot of what makes Hamilton as a musical likable (especially to more liberal people and minorities like African-Americans) is the fact that the cast is POC. Look, a lot of the founding fathers were at least somewhat racist and owned slaves. But when someone like Thomas Jefferson or George Washington is played by a black person, it's reclaiming history as their own even though they were marginalized for a lot of it. The cast NEEDS to be mostly POC for it to work in the way it does. It's shows that American history and the ideals that America was founded on belong to ALL Americans not just white ones and it's a profound statement that seems lost on A lot of people who watch it.

Sure the wording of the casting notice could have been improved (which it has) but the people (not referring to you OP but people I saw on facebook) trying to call the show racist for not hiring white people as the principle leads are completely missing the point of the show.

 

Like I get it the show is popular, the music is great, it's a really cute show that everybody loves and wants to be a part of. But it's important that the cast is mostly POC.

[newintown]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 3:03pm

This is not a conversation, because dissent (on this topic, at least) is not permitted. White people should not express an opinion; if they absolutely feel that they must, total agreement with the accepted dogma is the only acceptable expression - but it really is best for whites to abstain from comment.

As we all know, whites own the entire world. China is owned by whites; Japan and North Korea are owned by whites. All of Central and South America are owned by whites. There is no neighborhood, community, or nation on Earth that is not owned (and has not always been owned) by whites.

More ironically, whites are now in the minority everywhere in the world - as has been stated earlier, Hamilton is American history as told by America as it is today; that is, 98% non-white (if you identify Latino as non-white, but do we really need to muddy the argument thus?).

Like most topics and ideas, this one is completely black/white; there are no shades of grey, there is no ambiguity, there is no complexity - it can be reduced to a five second sound bite which essentially says "all whites are, and always have been, just the worst kind of people."

Excluding the former excluders really is the only practicable solution, because the human species cannot exist without some kind of hate.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 3:05pm

the racial juxtaposition is baked into the script, from John Laurens, who lived and died fighting slavery and racism, to Cabinet battle #1, to Sally Hemings' cameo. All of these moments would be lost without the prescribed casting. 

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 4/2/16 at 3:41pm

newintown said: "This is not a conversation, because dissent (on this topic, at least) is not permitted. White people should not express an opinion; if they absolutely feel that they must, total agreement with the accepted dogma is the only acceptable expression - but it really is best for whites to abstain from comment.

As we all know, whites own the entire world. China is owned by whites; Japan and North Korea are owned by whites. All of Central and South America are owned by whites. There is no neighborhood, community, or nation on Earth that is not owned (and has not always been owned) by whites.

More ironically, whites are now in the minority everywhere in the world - as has been stated earlier, Hamilton is American history as told by America as it is today; that is, 98% non-white (if you identify Latino as non-white, but do we really need to muddy the argument thus?).

Like most topics and ideas, this one is completely black/white; there are no shades of grey, there is no ambiguity, there is no complexity - it can be reduced to a five second sound bite which essentially says "all whites are, and always have been, just the worst kind of people."

Excluding the former excluders really is the only practicable solution, because the human species cannot exist without some kind of hate.

 

"

slams head on the desk.

Did you read this thread at all. Read my post RIGHT ABOVE yours. I explained it. And white people are in the play.

This show is about America so I have no idea why you are talking about China and South America. Again part of the vision of the show is it is American history told by minorities who were often marginalized through out history and it is showing that American history belongs to all Americans not just white people who had rights back in the time it takes place. It's kinda claiming American history as their own as well even though at the time it didn't really include them. It's just a lens in which they chose to tell the story. It's not about "hating white people" Are you kidding. The show puts the founding fathers (who were really white) in a pretty positive light. George Washington is practically portrayed as a faultless god. Even Thomas Jefferson who is kind of an antagonist, your meant to find him funny and cocky. It's just telling the story through a minority lens. It's the same as The Color Purple where the race of the characters are important just more subtle in Hamilton. It's part of the reason the show works so well.

When Lin said "America now" he meant that all the people in the play are Americans but at the time it took place they would have had no rights or not even been considered Americans but they are still telling the story of the foundation of America. I really don't get how conservatives could dislike the message of the play. It's so patriotic and so many kids worship the founding fathers now because of it.

Anyway don't worry when the rights are released to high schools and community theatres you'll get to see white people in the roles since you desperately need that.

 

Updated On: 4/2/16 at 03:41 PM