Minorities and the Theatre: A Discussion

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:06am

[Warning: This is a discussion. There is no reason to throw the racism card into the mix. It's just a simple discussion. So please, don't take offense if people use the word "they" in reference to a particular race, or something stupid like that.]

I've always been intrigued by why minorities - and yes this is totally generalizing - only go to shows that represent their distinct race. Like the Latino community supporting "In The Heights" or African-Americans going to "Joe Turner's Come and Gone." Now, I understand that you can relate to someone of your own race and that's understandable, but I have a problem with the fact that people only see shows that represent their race. You know what I mean? Why can't an African-American family go see "Next to Normal" or "Billy Elliot" and relate to it the same way they would "Joe Turner?" Or why can't a caucasian family go see "The Color Purple" and relate to the struggles the same way they would to, I don't know, "Phantom of the Opera."

I don't know. Maybe the argument of view point is moot and pointless, but I thought I'd at least ask. I just got to thinking after seeing "Joe Turner" and was pretty much the only white person in the Mezz. And I sort of felt weird laughing at the jokes about the "white devil," but at the same they were def. hilarious, and I can totally see why they would be funny.

Any thoughts?

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:10am

To throw a wrench in things, I'm Asian American and I can tell you I saw nearly the same percentage of Asian faces at Jersey Boys as I did at Miss Saigon, and that ratio was NEVER close to the racial makeup of the audience at any other comparable Equity tour in any of the large houses in SF.

That said, I understand where you're coming from. I think there's definitely an element of going to "support your own," but I don't see why it has to stop there.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:20am

Agreed. I mean, I'm not hating on them. I'm glad to see anyone in the theater, but I just wish we could like...overcome it?

I'm sort of coming from the perspective that I went to a college that did a lot of "ethnic" shows, and it seems like the minority community only came out to see those shows - like "The Piano Lesson" or "In The Blood" - but they wouldn't come see shows like "Cabaret."

[WishingOnlyWounds2]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:27am

Well, I remember at Tarzan the people in front of me were African American and said at the end of the show "I would have thought there would have been more black people in the cast." and the women she was with responded "They're all in the Lion King."

I found that to be just ridiculous in my mind. Now, I could be going a little off-topic as far as this thread goes. But, I just couldn't believe there little discussion. I felt like cutting in and saying "Does it really matter?".

[MiracleElixir]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:32am

It's true. But just as with movies, I'd say it's more difficult to get white people into a "Black" or "Latin" show than the other way around because, as sad as it is, white people have so many things about themselves to choose from, while Black/Latin/etc people HAVE to go see movies/shows about white people, otherwise they'd ONLY have Tyler Perry movies, etc. to go see. Know what I mean?

Every time I saw "Passing Strange," I always struggled to find another white face in the crowd, and in a similar vein, I couldn't talk my parents into seeing the movie "Barbershop" when that came out.

[hubee]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 1:56am

I'm Asian too so I think sometimes I come from an outside perspective since I usually notice that theatre going is usually very (and I apologize for my billion generalizations that are coming!) white that is generally peppered by some asians and I can usually count the number of blacks in the audience (if any at all).

Is it just what people do (or don't?)? I'm just guessing some cultural groups don't go to the theatre because they aren't used to it, from reasons that they don't connect to the stories, economics, not a priority, whatever. But when something like Color Purple or an all black cast of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof shows up, theres a few more compelling reasons to go. And since I think a lot of people only see one or two shows a year, those just happen to pull them the most. If they went to more shows, maybe they would see whatever, but I think most people only see a couple shows a year and then stick with what they know.

Still, when my sister and I went to Color Purple or my sister went to COAHTR and we were basically the only non-blacks in the audience, it was kinda strange too. We thought there would be more non-blacks seeing the show too so it kinda works both ways, no?

I think it's only us theatre crazies that tend to see it all no matter what, because we love seeing the differences but my guess is most people don't see more than a few shows a year (especially tourists coming to NY).

Though even on the tours in Toronto (where I am), Color Purple filled the audience with blacks (sorry, I'm CDN and we don't really say African CDN here, that whole blah blah Canadian/American thing never really caught on up here) but none of them were there for the rest of the subscription series (Chorus Line, Spring Awakening, Medea, Sound of Music) so they must have only bought single seats or something.

On the other hand, where were all the black people for Passing Strange? When I went (and my sister on another day) we both noted it was an almost completely white audience (from whatever little audience it had).

And while I'm blabbing too long, I do get the Tarzan lady comment because from my point of view, it would be nice to see a few more Asians cast in musicals that aren't just Miss Saigon and Flower Drum Song.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 2:11am

And since I think a lot of people only see one or two shows a year, those just happen to pull them the most. If they went to more shows, maybe they would see whatever, but I think most people only see a couple shows a year and then stick with what they know.

I think you hit on it. And it's not just race, either. There are reasons why shows like Mamma Mia and Les Miz lasted so long -- people who weren't necessarily into theatre but knew what they liked kept going back to what they liked. Since when did you hear of someone who would only see 2 or 3 shows a year and they'd bee Next to Normal or Floyd Collins whatnot?

Updated On: 4/10/09 at 02:11 AM

[Amaranth9]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 2:27am

"I'm just guessing some cultural groups don't go to the theatre because they aren't used to it, from reasons that they don't connect to the stories, economics, not a priority, whatever. But when something like Color Purple or an all black cast of Cat on a Hot Tin Roof shows up, theres a few more compelling reasons to go. And since I think a lot of people only see one or two shows a year, those just happen to pull them the most. If they went to more shows, maybe they would see whatever, but I think most people only see a couple shows a year and then stick with what they know."

"as sad as it is, white people have so many things about themselves to choose from, while Black/Latin/etc people HAVE to go see movies/shows about white people, otherwise they'd ONLY have Tyler Perry movies, etc. to go see. Know what I mean?"


I just want to say that both of these comments make good points that I think get to parts of the issue.

I also made a comment in a Bye-Bye Birdie thread a while back that may contradict this, but what has crossed my mind is this:
When I think about underrepresented groups in theater, I do think it is important to think about the roles, rather than the identity of the person casted. Obviously it is still an achievement to have more actors of various identifications on the stage... So I find the question that was raised about Rosie in another thread to be interesting and a bit hard to grapple with- the idea of role that is specified to be a certain background but could be played by someone who passes for the role in general. In this case, I think I'd prefer the best person for the role, but if that person happens to identify with the role as an underrepresented group, then that, for me is a plus, if not, it doesn't detract. So it might be silly, but I get proud to see, say Karen Olivo up on the stage doing her thing.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 2:34am

I'm white -- or rather Irish/Italian since white isn't really a nationality, but I thoroughly enjoyed The Color Purple. I just hate that I could never audition for it. And I could never play Simba in the Lion King. That bothers me a little.

[Bobby Maler]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 2:40am

Yes, it is a generalization to say that "minorities only go to shows that represent their distinct race." I've certainly seen minorities at all types of shows, and I've also seen cases where more white people than minorities came out in support of an "ethnic" show (Radio Golf, Passing Strange, Durango, YellowFace).

Put yourself in the shoes of a minority member. Everywhere you look, your story is not really being told. There are very few people in the Media who look like you and represent the totality of your experience. Suddenly, there is the first mainstream musical that incorporates rap, salsa, merengue,and music that filled your childhood with cultural references ("piragua, etc) that you understand, with a story about the immigrant experience that reminds you of your own mom and dad. Of COURSE you want to go support In The Heights if you're Latino (doesn't mean you'll like it, you might even think it was white washed). This is really no different than teens and young adults flocking to Spring Awakening repeatedly, saying thank god, finally, there is a musical that speaks to me! The issues presented are universal, but they will resonate most strongly with a core audience.

People thought Passing Strange would appeal to a Black audience, and for the most part, every time I went, the theatre was filled with mostly white people. There are demographic, economic and social reasons why more white people tend to go to the theatre than minorities, but more fundamentally, Passing Strange failed the "speaks to me" test. After eavesdropping on a conversation between a black woman and her husband, it dawned on me that this show could be perceived as a story about a black person wanting to assimilate in order to get ahead in life, to hide his blackness until it suddenly became politically advantageous to him. Why would black people pay to see that?? They're already living it!

The economics of it all also plays a role. I wouldn't want anyone to think from what I wrote above that if you put on a minority themed show you can automatically count on a minority audience to come out in droves. The same principles apply here as they do with anything else. Race is not really a factor. Black People made "Raisin in the Sun" and "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" a hit but did not come out for "Radio Golf." Why? Because "Cat," as a result of casting a well known star in their community like Terrence Howard who people were curious to see on stage, they stockpiled their cast with credibile actors like James Earl Jones and Phylicia Rashad. Add to that the fact that it was a purposely ALL-black cast in a classic which black people has been denied a chance to play in, and you had an EVENT. Fact is, it was able to bring in crowds beyond the small numbers of the frequent theatre goer.
The small number of minority avid theatre fans out there was not large enough to sustain both shows in the same economy. Again, race factors in very little.

[bwaybabe2]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 5:01am

My reality of the concept is that it is sort of a "reverse discrimination" on most of the minorities' part, and at the same time somewhat ignorant (I'm not trying to offend any minorities, but if they are really honest with themselves, they will see that what I am saying is right). It takes an open minded, and enlightened individual to make the choice to see outside of their "comfort" level.
Which brings me to the other concept I believe interferes: Let's face it, most of us like to see things which give us a certain comfort, and we can identify with. Therefore, why this happens. Kind of like rooting for the "home" team...
Updated On: 4/10/09 at 05:01 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 9:04am

Interesting topic...and Bobby Maler, thanks for your thoughts, I agree with much of what you said.

When I went to see the Color Purple, I expected there to be a pretty large percentage of blacks...I was totally unprepared to feel like one of the only whites however. And since that goes directly to the original question: why didn't more white folks go see THAT show? (Which I enjoyed a great deal.)

I don't think that simply casting more minorities will have any effect on the given audience. Only the stories to be told.

However: I look at a play like August, and think: why wouldn't it appeal to ANY race...it's about FAMILY. Period.

I do remember a story a number of years back when Schindler's List came out. Speilberg brought the film for free to a local NY movie so that thousands of local (and mostly black) HS kids could see it. (I don't remember which borough.) He overheard a conversation between two black young men which went something like this:

Student 1: So? What's the point of US seeing it?
Student 2: Pain is pain.

STILL here in 2009 we have NOT crossed those racial barriers...not on stage, not in film; not on tv and CERTAINLY not in life.

[kyleorlando]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 9:18am

Something that hasn't been brought up yet is group sales. When selling to large groups, merchants will go directly to their perceived audience. It's going to be a lot easier to sell massive amounts of tickets to The Color Purple to the congregation of a predominately black church than it would be, say, A Chorus Line.

[singtopher]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 9:46am

I believe that to minority audiences, those shows are about race. I once heard Julie Taymor say that to while folks, The Lion King has nothing to do with race, while to the black community, it has everything to do with race and nationality. The same sort of logic can be used for women or gays. Because they are a minority, going to see these shows gives them the feeling of being a more accepted member of society.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 10:15am

I believe that to minority audiences, those shows are about race.

Which is good and bad. I was never one of those kids who yearned to see a TV show/movie/musical with cast members who "looked like me," but there was a great deal more excitement in some of my family members when the Miss Saigon tour came by, and in a circle of friends made up mainly of Asian American ex-co-workers when AMTSJ did Flower Drum Song.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 10:51am

"Put yourself in the shoes of a minority member. Everywhere you look, your story is not really being told."

I don't think that's true at all. I have yet to see MY story told anywhere in the media. I can't connect with "Next to Normal" or "August: Osage County" at all, but I can still go and appreciate them and get caught up in the story. I just don't get the racial boundaries. Is it going to take an "All Black Cast" of "August" to get minorities into the Music Box? I mean, it seems sort of ridiculous to me. I saw "Joe Turner." I didn't feel like I was "out of my comfort" zone. I was just going to see a play by a well-known playwright.

Maybe it stems from upbringing and whatnot. Maybe theater isn't as prevalent in the minority communities. Maybe the arts aren't as alive in those neighborhoods or schools? Which I think I would agree with, except from when a show like Color Purple or Joe turner comes around and then people come out in droves. I mean, essentially "Wicked" is a show about race and overcoming racial boundaries, but it seems mostly peppered with the white upper middle class?

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 10:59am

"There is no reason to throw the racism card into the mix. It's just a simple discussion..."

Discussions of race are rarely "simple." Pointing out racism is hardly "throwing a card." Trying to preclude accusations of racism before a discussion is overly-defensive and usually a red flag. Because sometimes discussions can be racist.

You could start with the use of the word "minorities"...

Just saying. As part of a simple discussion.

[Pianolin717]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 10:59am

When I usher at the opera here, I notice that there are not a lot of black people usually but when they recently did Tosca, there was a big turnout and I believe it is because the leading lady was black. They seemed to enjoy it and I did too because it was really good :)

[g4rat]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:02am

I'm an African American male, and I do somtimes feel that others in the community (at least where I live) are more drawn to African American foucused experiences. Now I've seen a few B way shows and I never really noticed too many white, black, asians, ect. in the audience. I think broadway theatre is one of the few art forms that really invites a wide audience.

I personally, love to see all sorts of shows from all sorts of perspective, but it all really goes back to what you are use to seeing and then finally getting to see something different (an all black cast, still very rare on broadway), of course your going to try and see you group represented on stage, that's exciting! I really wish more shows would just cast all sorts of races in the leads and say screw it, we know that our audience is going to be diverse. I think the more diverse the cast, the more theatre will become (if not so now)a big melting pot. I hope that all made sense. haha.
Updated On: 4/10/09 at 11:02 AM

[Philly_Orchestra2]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:20am

A little off topic. I posted this a few days ago and no one read it, but this Easter marks the 70th anniversary of Marian Anderson's historical concert at the Lincoln Memorial.

There's so much history in that (plus a new book), but remember there was a time when an African-American concert singer was a rarity. Besides Ms. Anderson there was Todd Duncan and a host of others, most of them forgotten.

How I wish I could have been at that concert. It was just a bit of an opening, but Anderson paved the way for African-American singers in lieder, opera, etc.

As a professional musician I had the opportunity to work with Ms. Anderson. She was as beautiful as her voice!

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 11:22am

I think it's just all about how Broadway has come to be viewed as primarily a "white people" thing. In recent years, shows that gear towards, say, Latino or African-American or Asian culture as singled out. There was much hoopla over the all African-American cast of CAT ON A HOT TIN ROOF and the same with THE COLOR PURPLE. ITH is a big deal for the Latino community. It seems like these things stick out more because producers know they can bring in more of an audience if they talk up the idea that it's about a certain people.

Personally, I think it's all ridiculous. Like, sure you can't go colorblind casting THE COLOR PURPLE or ITH, but I think it's ridiculous that when a "white" show tries colorblind casting, it's a big deal. There are some shows where this JUST. DOESN'T. MATTER. I was a little put off by people making a fuss over Phylicia Rashad in A:OC due to her ethnicity. If people objected to her acting ability, that's one thing. But there were people insisting the cast would need to be all black because one member of the family isn't Caucasian. Will it be a stretch of the imagination? Mildly. But why can't a show that doesn't necessarily NEED to be cast entirely Caucasian try out some colorblind casting if it's permitted artistically? Besides Johnna, I don't recall the script ever saying the Weston's are a white family. Can't African-American women be racist too?

Sorry if this post was unclear or incoherent. I'm a firm believer that, even though boundaries (whether based on race or sexual orientation or gender) haven't been broken completely yet, we shouldn't single things out and segregate. It just makes it harder to have equality.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:08pm

"Put yourself in the shoes of a minority member. Everywhere you look, your story is not really being told."

I don't think that's true at all. I have yet to see MY story told anywhere in the media.

I think you're missing the point a little. Shows like In the Heights or The Color Purple relate to people not entirely because it tells their personal story. These shows reflect a culture and its history. It would be similar, I would think, to Italian-Americans or people from New Jersey being more inclined to see Jersey Boys, or people from Long Island being interested to see a Billy Joel musical. It's about the pride of your culture or history or background. And usually these shows market themselves in such a fashion so that it would appeal to their respective minority groups. Other shows like Next to Normal or August: Osage County can't really do the same. "Crazy white people" (exaggeration/generalization/no offense intended) isn't a minority or a subgroup of people that producers can market to. For race-specific shows or shows that appeal to a certain minority group, it's always about where people have come from and how far they have gone. Anyone in that subgroup can relate in some way. And if it's true that these minorities only see one show a year (if even that), of course they'll want to see the show that speaks to them. On the other side of that, they will probably not choose a show like Next to Normal or August: Osage County to bring the entire extended family to see.

That said, I have yet to see a show that really speaks to the Asian community. I am an Asian male and the only show I could possibly think that relates to me culturally is Pacific Overtures, which is pretty depressing. Every major show that incorporates Asian people is largely about them assimilating to the white culture. I guess one can say that this is true in real life too, but where is our show that we can relate to that doesn't remind us every other song that we're an overlooked minority in society and especially in the media? Or a show where the leading lady doesn't kill herself for a white man? Where's the show where we can be proud to be Asian? (Then again, are Asians proud to be Asian? That's an entirely different matter...)

Remember that all of us here are cultured and already immersed into theatre. Many minority groups as a whole do not go to the theatre due to cultural or financial reasons. The reason why I became interested in theatre is the fact that I grew up primarily amongst middle-class white people in a school district that embraced the arts. If I grew up in a different neighborhood, I would not have been exposed to it at all. And that's why I firmly believe that arts education is so important in public schools, in all schools. Sadly, these departments are usually the first to go in struggling school districts and are completely non-existent in poorer areas.

I do have to applaud all the posters on this thread. Very insightful, intelligent, and not catty. It's a nice change. :)

~Steven

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:13pm

Excellent post, HeyMrMusic.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:16pm

That said, I have yet to see a show that really speaks to the Asian community.

What about Making Tracks? (I really am just asking; I never saw it.)

When I saw Flower Drum Song at AMTSJ (as previously mentioned), I was with a group of Asian American friends who had maybe ever seen 3 or 4 musicals in their entire lives and they were all in their late 20s or 30s. They loved it. I liked it. They raved and went on and on about it and I couldn't really join in. They seemed to really appreciate the relatively recent immigrant experience being played out on stage. I could've taken it or left it. I'm not sure exactly what that says about them, the show, or me... (I'd never seen any incarnation of FDS before that.)

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 4/10/09 at 12:16pm

Hey Mr.Music, thanks for bringing in such an educated post. You get this issue in ways that the OP really doesn't.