Modernized/updated Hammerstein shows?- Page 3

[Musical Master]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 10:44pm

Thanks Gaveston for the info. Plus I will forever resent anyone who thinks that Oscar Hammerstein II was a "June-moon lyricist"; I mean- no, just no....

Even in his weaker works with Richard Rodgers (Me and Juliet anyone?), the lyrics are still wonderful.

Updated On: 7/12/14 at 10:44 PM

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 10:56pm

I agree. Hammerstein is a lyrical genius. There's a reason why he was Sondheim's mentor.

However, I will say that I do prefer the lyrics of Lorenz Hart…only because his lyrics were pure poetry whereas Hammerstein was more prose.

BTW, I had no idea clambakes ceased to exist. I'm not from New England, however. Having Carousel be set in the Great Depression is a novel idea, but what purpose does it serve?

Updated On: 7/12/14 at 10:56 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 11:02pm

^^^ Perhaps the original point was that Hammerstein usually eschews the clever rhymes of a Hart or Porter or even Sondheim. In fact, Hammerstein had the confidence to write simply and trust his audience rather than feeling he had to dazzle them with wordplay in every line.

But to me, "moon, June, spoon" means lazy and cliche. Hammerstein uses simple rhymes and identities to convey deep emotion, just as great composers repeat musical themes.

In another thread, several posters mentioned the following as one of their favorite show songs:

EMILE:
One dream in my heart,
One love to be living for,
One love to be living for
This nearly was mine.

One girl for my dream,
One partner in paradise,
This promise of paradise
This nearly was mine.

Close to my heart she came
Only to fly away,
Only to fly as day
Flies from moonlight

Now, now I'm alone,
Still dreaming of paradise,
Still saying that paradise
Once nearly was mine.

Not a true rhyme in the entire lyric, except for the internal "away"/"day" in the bridge. (He does this I think to help the ear during what is a four-line sentence.)

That isn't "moon/June/spoon". This is a dramatist writing for a character who is in the depths of despair and speaking in a language not native to him. And if your Emile can half carry a tune, it's a devastating song on stage.

I am resolved to try to emulate Hammerstein's simple honesty in the next show I write (depending on the subject and characters, of course). Frankly, it's a lot easier to be glib.

Updated On: 7/12/14 at 11:02 PM

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 11:09pm

Would you really say Hart and Sondheim's lyrics were motivated by dazzling audiences with wordplay because they couldn't trust their audiences? I don't really agree with that.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 11:11pm

No, VIET, the point per Wiki is that clambakes ARE still held in New England. (I think one point of setting the show in the Great Depression is that it emphasizes the economic problems of Billy and the female clothing is closer to today's and easier to obtain cheaply.)

I share your love of Hart and he can be moving as well as clever, especially to those of us who tend to see the world with irony-colored glasses. (Sondheim rails against Hart, but he doth protest too much, if you ask me.) I don't think you have to apologize for preferring Hart.

I'm 60 and I think a lot people my age and older were so immersed in R&Hammerstein as kids that we just got tired of it. I went through a period of a couple of decades where I just didn't go to R&H shows. But I've emerged from that period unscathed and can again appreciate what geniuses they were.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 11:20pm

I think setting it in the Great Depression sort of takes out the whole women labor aspect in New England of the late 1800s where many women were employed by these textile mills. I had to read a book about it for one of my undergraduate history courses.

Anyway, I had no idea Sondheim railed against Hart. I'm going to have to look that up some more. Thanks for all the insight.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 11:23pm

"Would you really say Hart and Sondheim's lyrics were motivated by dazzling audiences with wordplay because they couldn't trust their audiences? I don't really agree with that.

No, not really, VIET. I was being glib.

I think Hart and Sondheim do love wordplay and the latter has even admitted he has abused his characters at times while playing with their lyrics.

And we really have to talk about Sondheim I (up through SWEENEY) v. Sondheim II (PASSION's lyrics eschew cleverness for the most part). (Parts of INTO THE WOODS seem to come from both periods.)

What I really think is that Hart and Sondheim and Hammerstein all have different views of the world. And their writing reflects that. All three men have different natures and dominated different eras (okay, Hammerstein and Hart overlapped). I could further speculate as to the influence of sexuality on those world views, but I should let somebody else write her own dissertation.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 11:28pm

VIET, you can find Sondheim's latest rant on Hart in FINISHING THE HAT.