Color Blind Casting- Page 3

[eb412]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 9:44pm

wow great topic! im sure you guys will talk me out of everything i say because i understand and agree with all of you...

sometimes i find color blind casting to be distracting...obviously hairspray and ragtime would not work because race is part of the character...im not really a fan of the new les mis simply because of daphne as fantine...and its not even color blind casting cuz her daughter is the same race or similar looking i dont know this girls background....i particularly dont like daphne as the role and find the use of various ethnic backgrounds to be a gimmic...i dont know about the other people so i wont discuss them...but u guys use race as part of a character not to be changed and i agree...but what about class?? if they want to keep the show historically correct and have period costumes then have historically correct casting as much as possible...not to say for EVERY character but the ones that it is historically vital andwould be too hard to stretch...if you want to make it a show that its "timeless" (meaning set in any period) then fine do any race/ethnic what ever casting you want...i find your guys argument for race supports the argument for historical accuracy (and im ignoring the comment about singing randomely not being historically acurate because the musical iss they way the story is toldd....its not actually part of the story if i phrase that well enough...)

i think the blind casting however in millie is fine though because its not distracting...its explained for...and not to mention its told in a cartoony comedy way with the costumes, set, characters, everything....so even though its a period piece its not REALLy a period piece like ragtime or les mis...its ok to do it in that sense...

but anotherr thing about millie...i hate how innitially a show is blind casted...and then can NEVER be changed...ever notice how ever since...all muzzys are black? the character doesnt have to be...it started as blind casting...but now isnt anymore...cuz the character is always played by the same race...i find that odd...and annoying...why not experiement with different blind casting for that show????

[TheaterAddict7652]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 10:56pm

If race is crucial to the plot, then there should be no color blind casting, especially if its a drama. I hate seeing pictures of high school productions of Dreamgirls with a white girl as one of the members of the Dreams. It doesn't make sense in terms of plot development. That's why I'm thankful when my high school put on Ragtime years ago, we had black actors play Coalhouse and Sarah. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense.

[Chris T]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 2:37pm

An interesting debate. Much the same was argued in the UK when Matthew Koon, of Chinese descent, was cast to play Billy Elliot in the west end. Having seen Matthew perform, I'm not convinced that race is that important. Few concessions are made to Matt's race - he acts with the same European Dad, Grandma, brother, Older Billy and Dead Mum as the other Billies, (although Older Billy and Dead Mum do wear darker wigs when Matthew's on). I found that after a few minutes of watching Matthew I was enjoying his performance, he was Billy and his race didn't matter. Presumably much the same will be true of Layton Williams, one of the Billies-to-be, who is of mixed race.

[Link Larkin Wanabe]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 3:00pm

Just because an actor is a certain race...doesn't mean their character is.

Theatre is all about suspension of disbeleif. The minute you walk into the theatre you are already willing to loosen that connection with reality and watch people, who you know are actors, pretend to be someone they are not. Does the colour of their skin really matter. If someone were to complain: "But a person like Javert would never be black during the period of the French Revolution", I could only laugh and respond that a person like Javert wouldn't randomly break out into song to express his obsession with finding Valjean.

Again there are exceptions to this with regards to shows specifically about race (Ragtime, Hairspray, etc.). There are shows that a lot of people think are about race but aren't though. The struggle in Aida doesn't have to do with race, rather than culture and social stature. As long as the costumes were clear enough to differentiate the Nubians from the Egyptians, I can't say I would have any problem watching a production with a white Aida or a black Radames or Amneris.

Akiva
Updated On: 10/25/06 at 03:00 PM

[ILUVTOMG]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 3:06pm

Why not TOMG? I think a black Maria Von Trapp would actually be interesting. And why not? Black people did exist in Germany in the 1940s, and it would probably even be historically accurate for a black woman to have worked as a governess.

I chose Maria VonT as an example because she was white and it would be inaccurate to have an actress of color portray her. Same with Rose Hovac.

Would you like to see Nicole Kidman play Lena Horne?

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 3:20pm

What I'd like to see happen is instead of color blind casting, go with "blind body-type casting" - why not get a chubby Elphaba up there? If the girl can belt the sh*t out of the notes, who cares?

[avab802]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 3:28pm

The struggle in Aida doesn't have to do with race, rather than culture and social stature. As long as the costumes were clear enough to differentiate the Nubians from the Egyptians, I can't say I would have any problem watching a production with a white Aida or a black Radames or Amneris.

And if you want to get technical, Radames and Amneris (and all the Egyptians) would have been dark skinned. I highly doubt there were any blonde-haired, blue-eyed (a la Sherie Rene-Scott) ancient Egyptians.

Edited to add: You are right, TOMG. I did concede later in the thread to Rose Hovac and Maria von Trapp being real people. Updated On: 10/25/06 at 03:28 PM

[Julian2]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 3:47pm

but anotherr thing about millie...i hate how innitially a show is blind casted...and then can NEVER be changed...ever notice how ever since...all muzzys are black? the character doesnt have to be...it started as blind casting...but now isnt anymore...cuz the character is always played by the same race...i find that odd...and annoying...why not experiement with different blind casting for that show????

Hell yes I've noticed this. Even if I could pull off those backflips, I could never play Angel in Rent.

Ok,IMO, there are race specific shows [Ragtime/Hairspray/The Color Purple] where color blind casting dosen't work. Then there is the long list of shows [The Drowsy Chaparone/The Last Five Years/Cinderella/etc] where it dosen't matter one iota. Some shows go with a fully ethnic cast [Guys and Dolls 70's/Hello Dolly Pearl Bailey cast] but this usually is done with much greater frequency on Broadway as opposed to community theatre [as far as I know]. Then there are roles that are looked at differently because of there original casting [Muzzy in Thoroughly Modern Millie]. It kinda makes me wonder if people would question the deep historical possiblitlies of a black Muzzy if it were originally cast white. [I have not seen the show, saw the movie, own the CD, and I'm not a history major, so I'm not sure] But also this tends to create a black role, and whites/asians/hispanics can't play it just because its a black role [which is a ridiculous problem we have in today's theatre] Those who have seen them seem to be of the opinion that all-white casts of traditionally black shows do not work, so that indicates such transfers are difficult if not impossible. But the trickiest kind of show to decide if an race consience cast is necassary is one that dosen't deal with race and is set in the past [Les Miz] [which includes "current" peices written in the 50/60's]. For these shows it really depends on the production and the director [plus the audience members personal opinion] and really on the show itself. I think decisions of this nature are hard to judge, it really depends on the director. And usually people forget what there watching, esp. if the preformer is talanted [which they seem to be usually, just think, they had to be soo good so that the director could see past the most obvious of physical aspect, I mean, we all have our preset images] Another thing is to consider is the historisty of the piece. One example of how important the production is, I CANNOT imagine the original/tour production of Sweeney with a black beggar woman, I think I would find that distracting. However, MAYBE in a different production, it might work. But if it dosen't work, it dosen't work, period. They are ways that people of different ethnic backrounds can play any part, IMO, but it has to work.

[metaphor]The trick is pressing play on both Avenue Q and Hairspray at the same time. . .[/metaphor]

And if you want to get technical, Radames and Amneris (and all the Egyptians) would have been dark skinned. I highly doubt there were any blonde-haired, blue-eyed (a la Sherie Rene-Scott) ancient Egyptians.

Thank you, I was just about to mention this, I for one would LOOOOOOOOOOVE to play Mereb someday . . .

Updated On: 10/25/06 at 03:47 PM

[Effie]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 4:05pm

"Just because an actor is a certain race... doesn't mean their character is."

Link Larkin Wannabe--

You just gave the best, most succinct answer I've ever heard on the topic.

Ultimately, everybody's up on stage pretending to be something they're not. The fact that certain people aren't able to suspend disbelief when it comes to race speaks either to their own issues or the fact that the actor in question didn't do his job well enough.

[moviefan1]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 4:17pm

Has anyone seen West Side Story where the Maria and the Sharks were actual Puerto Ricans?

Most likely not.

[Calvin]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 4:24pm

It boils down to how much physical type weighs into the role.

For an obvious example, take Annie. Both Roz Ryan and Nell Carter have played Miss Hannigan. Would a Depression era orphanage of white children have been run by a black woman? Probably not. Did it matter in the context of either of their performances? Not in the least.

Now, if James Earl Jones had played FDR, that would have been a distraction, because that role's typically been done as kind of an impersonation of FDR.

[mpw607]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 6:28pm

This subject comes up regularly and I guess the only safe answer is: "it all depends". If the role is typically done by whites, but a Black or Asian actor does so while successfully suspending disbelief, then fine. If on the other hand it is distracting to the audience then maybe it's not such a good idea.

The better the actor the less likely it is to matter. The more universal the play the less important it is likely to be, so Shakespeare should be colour blind. On the other hand, period pieces are probably more vulnerable

The subject of The Sound of Music has been raised. In that case I think it would be better to have an all black cast or an all white cast. My reason? The von Trapps fled from Nazi Germany because they were *politically* opposed to Nazism and the Anschluß. If you had a black Maria, it might mislead some in the audience into thinking they were fleeing racial persecution rather than political persecution. In a sense, it's the reverse of the argument advanced by others in respect of the Color Purple

[eyekanspehl]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 8:04pm

A lot of people have already stated this opinion, and I just wanted to reiterate because I aggree. I'm all for color blind casting in a show like Les Mis, because race is not a central issue in the story. Color blind casting wouldn't work in shows like Ragtime, The Color Purple, etc. This also isn't the first time people of color have been cast in the show. There was Lea Salonga in the TAC, as well as others over the years. Personally, I'd prefer people get cast based on talent rather than appearence. I can't speak for this particular cast of Les Mis because I haven't seen them yet. Also, if being historically accurate with Les Mis were an issue, the only people who'd ever get cast would be French people, or people of French decent.

On a related not, I have a question: dose anyone think race matters for The Lion King? I was just thinking about that show today, so I thought I'd ask.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 8:54pm

"But while race isn't central to the plot in Les Miz, it is historically inaccurate to have a black officer of the law and I think it impacts the story being told.

As for Color Purple, I don't believe that race is central to the story. You could easily subsitute poor white folk and tell essentially the same story, except perhaps for Sophia's story."

Astounding. That is horribly hypocritical.

[Jon]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 9:06pm

The Lion King seems to bge cast on a reverse racist model. All the good, heroic characters are played by African-Americans, while the villains and fools are white.

Can you imagine the furor if they cast a black Scar and a white Mufasa?

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 9:09pm

"But while race isn't central to the plot in Les Miz, it is historically inaccurate to have a black officer of the law and I think it impacts the story being told.

As for Color Purple, I don't believe that race is central to the story. You could easily subsitute poor white folk and tell essentially the same story, except perhaps for Sophia's story."

Astounding. That is horribly hypocritical.

Plus, you'd have to change a few lines from the show. And you know which one's I'm talking about

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 9:20pm

It all depends on the show. "Ragtime" is a great example of a how that cannot have colorblind casting. Could a white person play Colehouse? Sure....however he would have to go "blackface" and that is NOT going to happen! White people cannot play black characters! It's just not acceptable.

[jonartdesigns]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 9:43pm

there are some shows (already mentioned) that it really does matter, but there are some instances that, despite historical inaccuracies blind casting works beautifully. Case in point; Chicago

I would truly love to see a white joanne, benny, and/ or collins in rent

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 9:47pm

So, I hope this doesn't come off wrong, but I've noticed that other races tend to show up in droves when the show in question has to do with them personally. I went to see a local production of "The Piano Lesson" and 70% of the audience were African-Americans. Then, while in NYC, I walked by The Color Purple and noticed buses of African-Americans unloading into the Broadway Theater. Why is it that they support shows dealing with them, but don't go see other shows? I mean, I can understand why they're going, but isn't that in it of itself wrong?

[LostLeander]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 10:26pm

This is true, Rentboy, but that's because the general black audience does not see anything that they can relate to on Broadway. If they don't know what they want to see, they'll support something with an African-American cast.

Plus, The Color Purple is a hugely popular and important film within the community.

Updated On: 10/25/06 at 10:26 PM

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 11:07pm

But while race isn't central to the plot in Les Miz, it is historically inaccurate to have a black officer of the law and I think it impacts the story being told.
===========================

Okay, bugger me for a guy who knows nothing about Les Mis, but I do know something about history. The show takes place in the mid-1800s, yes? A time when France was a major immigration point, and one of the more diverse countries in Europe. Also, they were quite forward-thinking, being the first European country to emancipate Jews and other minorities, during the revolution. Therefore, it is not all that unthinkable that a low-level inspector like Javert could be black.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 11:23pm

Yeah, I guess it's hard to understand from an outside perspective. White people haven't really undergone much oppression. It's not like all white people are flocking to Grey Gardens because it's a celebration of white people, ya know?

[erinrebecca]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 11:35pm

LostLeander, I think that it's sad, if, in fact, that is the reason that you don't see large numbers of blacks in the audience at most Broadway shows. I go to the theatre because I love the experience of a live performance, not because I can relate to what is going on onstage (although I do, at some shows). Why must someone relate to the story to enjoy it? I don't agree that that is true, for most audience members.

[LostLeander]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 12:06am

Please don't think I'm making a massive generalization about African-American theatre-goers, because I'm not.
Because I'm an African American theatre goer, and I certainly don't do that, and I hated the Color Purple.

But those bus loads of people from Cleveland, Ohio come to see Color Purple, because it's an event for them. It's an important movie in the African-African lexicon of films, especially with all the Oprah hype.

As to why there aren't many African Americans in the audience of other shows... I could not tell you. It saddens me too.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 12:43am

Yeah, I just don't get it. Why would they go to see "SoulPlane" at the movie theater, but won't go see "Finding Neverland"?