In the Heights: What?- Page 2

[kel62286]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 8:21am

I think that is the beauty of theatre, that it affects everyone differently. Your not going to like everything, but at least you can say you saw it!

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 8:26am

I hate white elitists who think because they've seen every show they have to knowledge and the background to take every show apart and compare it to some Platonic ideal of what the perfect show is.

Thats for white people, Broadway isnt just for white people any more.

I saw it on Wednesday and whille I was walking out, this woman was talking to her friend

'It reminded me of West Side Story!" She said

I turned to her and asked her Why

'Well," she stammered, "you know, the neighborhood, the people"

"You mean the brown people?" I answered, "because other than that I didn't see a lot of similarity."

[TulitaPepsi]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 8:38am

Yeah, BlkCollector - WEST SIDE STORY has a compelling, well-written book, something that IN THE HEIGHTS doesn't have.

I'm with Noel&Cole: I wanted to love IN THE HEIGHTS, but I thought it was pretty thin stuff. I hoping Lin can make a meatier musical next time.

Right now, I'll take the compelling and beautifully-written PASSING STRANGE, thank you.

Updated On: 4/22/08 at 08:38 AM

[Mealz1042]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 9:55am

now, see it's funny because i didn't like passing strange at all. Stew was fabulous and I respected the show but I just didn't enjoy it. It's all a matter of opinion really

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 10:04am

I hate white elitists who think because they've seen every show they have to knowledge and the background to take every show apart and compare it to some Platonic ideal of what the perfect show is.

Thats for white people, Broadway isnt just for white people any more.

What do you mean "any more"? Broadway has been racially intergrated for quite some time now and has given voice to artists of many races be them actors, writers, directors, choreographers, composers, etc. If someone criticizes a show for having flaws, it doesn't mean the show is being held to "white" standards. That's a pretty racist view.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 10:13am

Being integrated as far as casting is concerned does not equal being integrated as far as the creative and production aspect is concerned, so don't give me any of that 'reverse racism' crap.

remember the strike? remember the workers outside the theaters? How many of them were white? Almost every single one. in fact, I didn't see one minority face on those picket lines. And if you think it's any different on the creative end, you're mistaken.

I'm talking about the FORM, the form is different, it doesn't follow the same narrative structure of the "tradition" Broadway show, so to criticize ITH for that is in itself ethnocentric.

[jbdc]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 10:51am

Didn't Sondheim say, "White is different than good."

This angst about how to critique art by (even if they went to an exclusive school) for and about a particular group of people without critiquing the group of people has been around for a hundred years. Get over it. Anybody can buy a ticket to anything they want and feel however they want to fel about it, and someone who tries to invalidate someone else's opinion is missing the point entirely. Art is about creating discussions.

I'm sort of white, and I think Passing Strange is overrated and far from groundbreaking. I think In The Heights is at about the same level as Curtains artistically--cute, quaint, some great dancing, and largely forgettable.

I think Xanadu should win best musical, because it is the most completely developed musical I've seen this year. And I'm shocked I feel that way. Actually--Xanadu is about making art in a hostile world, so I shouldn't be shocked that I feel that way.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 10:53am

Being integrated as far as casting is concerned does not equal being integrated as far as the creative and production aspect is concerned, so don't give me any of that 'reverse racism' crap.

You are correct, but that is not what I said. I spoke about all aspects of production, not just casting. And I said it sounded racist, not reverse racist, which it does.

I'm talking about the FORM, the form is different, it doesn't follow the same narrative structure of the "tradition" Broadway show, so to criticize ITH for that is in itself ethnocentric.

Except that it's really not. Many many shows have broken the traditional narrative structure in a variety of ways written by a variety of people. So what aspect of the form is specifically non-white? How is the narrative structure solely Latino? Has it never occurred in theatre other than by Latino authors? If a show that breaks the traditional narrative structure is written by a white person (which has happened many times over the decades), what then?

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 11:02am

Matt, you have a valid point, but departure from traditional musical theater narrative form, while not exclusively a trait of minority written pieces, is usually a target for criticism by ethnocentric critics. Your point is valid and if you look at criticism history, you'll find that shows that are innovative in their narrative structure and written by whites are praised for innovation, but shows doing the same thing written by minorities are usually criticized for doing the same.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 11:29am

So how is In the Heights innovative in its narrative structure? It doesn't sound like most of the criticism for In the Heights is aimed at the form, but the content.

Naturally, when a show is created regarding a specific ethnic setting (which would include all ethnicities), especially when it's a subculture of Manhattan, the world's most iconic and ethnically diverse city, then like all shows, it will be picked apart for its authenticity and its representation of the culture it portrays. If it were more gritty and violent or depressing, it would be criticized for its negative stereotypes. If it is upbeat and more optimistic, it is considered "unrealistic". No show pleases everyone, but I really haven't seen anything that truly criticizes the show for its form nor have I seen anything to prove that the show's form is truly innovative.

Updated On: 4/22/08 at 11:29 AM

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 11:35am

That's my point, I guess we are in agreement. Most of the criticism I hear about ITH is that the music has too many "longing" or "yearning" songs in the score, and that is a criticism of the form, since many afro-carribbean styles of song use the idea of longing for a better life as a main theme. So criticizing that is really a criticism of afro-carribbean music, and not the show itself.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 11:45am

BKcollector

Your playing the race card a bit too much. You have to realize tha there are many musicals written by white writers that have changed the typical structure of the telling of a musical. And yet, your only focusing on the ones that did get some sort of startled reaction by critics and ones that were written by a minority creative team.

I agree with Matt. That In The Heights is a typical book musical and the critics were not happy with the fact that it didn't have much of a book. There were so many reviewers that went in thinking that it would show hispanics in the light that you see them on TV. That they would all be drug dealers and high school drop outs. But, they were taken aback when that wasn't what they saw. Some critics said that it was more authentic that it didn't view hispanics in that light.

I don't know if I would call the show inovative but it did show hispanics in a good light.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 11:55am

It's an interesting point. I see where you're coming from. I don't think it is really a criticism of Afro-Caribbean music either. I don't think people are saying, "why do Afro-Caribbeans only sing about longing?". That would imply they are incapable of writing songs about anything else. And as far as dramatic structure is concerned, I could see how too many longing songs would make for a repetitious evening (though I am not making any personal comment on the show). So how do you solve it? By calling people racist and tell them that thinking too many yearning songs is strictly a white elitist way of thinking? I don't think that's truly accurate. If I think a show has too many rap songs about violence, does that make me racist? Does it mean that violent rap songs are strictly to be associated with the African-American community? Perhaps songs of longing are not uniquely Afro-Caribbean. Meaning no offense, but I don't think the issue is so "black and white".

But that is assuming that the above opinion is the only valid opinion, which it isn't.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 11:55am

What bothers me is that a show that portrays minorities in a positive light would be called "innovative"

that bothers me.

[BroadwayChica]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 12:22pm

Why does that bother you, if you don't mind my asking?

I wouldn't say that the innovation lies in the fact that it's a "positive" portrayal. We've seen positive portrayals of latinos before (A Chorus Line is the best example). To me, the innovation lies in the accuracy of the way each individual culture is portrayed, through music, language, and characterization. If we look at WST, for example (and how can we not, as it's the show that has had the biggest impact on the development of a Latino identity on Broadway), the Puerto Rican characters are not only linked to gang violence, but during the show, they actually mock and disdain where they come from. Absolutely no attention was given to authenticity (Sondheim himself said as much). One of the results of the disapora was that Puerto Rican immigrants began to idealize where they came from. You need only look at the historical documents, literature, songs, etc, from the period, and they almost always express a longing for home. You'd never know that from hearing Anita sing that she wishes Puerto Rico would "sink back in the ocean", or openly mock the island's poverty, tropical diseases (which is such a white fear, anyway - if you're FROM the tropics, you don't fear tropical diseases). In ITH, by contrast, the characters speak of home, they hang their flags, they teach their children their language, they celebrate their culture, and some even dream of home. The innovation isn't that this is a *positive* portrayal, but, rather, than it's a much more accurate depiction of what the latino immigrant experience is like, and what latinos living in the US are like. It may not be 100% realistic (it is a musical, after all), but it's a far more accurate depiction than anything we'd seen before on the Broadway stage. I'd definitely call that innovative.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 12:29pm

What bothers me is that a show that portrays minorities in a positive light would be called "innovative"

that bothers me.

I don't think anyone mentioned the show was innovative specifically for that reason.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 12:40pm

And all innovative means is new. And it is sorta new that there are musicals out there that show minorities in a positive light.

And matt is right that no one is calling this show innovative for that one reason.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 12:46pm

of course no one explicitly says that it's innovative for that reason.

Just like no one is talking about Obama's race when people called him 'fresh-faced'

Come on.

I think the one thing that most posters on this board miss is subtext, and hiding being literal interpretations of shows or anything else. If everything was supposed to be taken literally, we've have some boring-ass theater on our hands, people.

[broadwayrocks2]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 12:56pm

I must say i just saw "in the heights " .Ive also seen crybaby ,YF ,xanadu. I enjoyed YF the most.. Young frank was the most enjoyable IMO!!

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 1:17pm

Wow, I thought YF was a turkey from beginning to end, and I loved the movie.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 1:30pm

BK

your choosing to make it about race. It doesn't always have to be. But I hate to say it your making it that way.

It is you who are making it about race.

[BkCollector]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 1:32pm

Sorry you see it that way Winston. The issue is very much about race, and if you don't think that plays into how people are analyzing and criticizing the piece, you're grossly mistaken.

I've seen the show a number of times and listened and watched the reactions around me, and believe, they are divided along racial lines.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 2:40pm

No I am not mistaken. It is you who are imature in thinking that race has everything to do with this.


I have seen the show five times and I have never looked at it as a racial matter and never have seen anyone around me do the same.

[TooDarnHot]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 6:51pm

so much race and politics with you, BK!

I'm sure this has already been discussed (so many posts about the topic) but, BK, musical theatre has been extremely diverse and integrated for some time now.

maybe they weren't some of themost accurate portrayals but it's not black and white. You can't say "West Side Story" inaccurately portrayed all of hispanics. Some hispanics are WSS sterotypes. My boyfriend, to start with.

I think many of you want to make this about politics when it isn't, for the majority.

WANNA BE - there is a huge difference between "Company" and "In The Heights" and the airbrush perspective. The characters in COMPANY are not urban just because they live in upper manhattan.

the way COMPANY has been formed and structured (costumes/type of speech/sets/everything else), you are not supposed to get that feeling of real urban living. ITH, however, is trying to do that. in a way.

I don't disagree with your view I just think COMPANY is a poor example.

[winston89]

Posted: 4/22/08 at 8:59pm

I think that the example of West Side Story was brought up because it has been said on record that it didn't do an accurate job of describing the hispanic culture. I personally don't want to make it about politics. I think that BK is making it more about race then anything else and it doesn't need to be.

And Too Darn Hot. I think that Foster used Company because it is a musical that focuses on a particular group of people in Manhatten and that live a particualr lifestyle in manhatten.