CABARET LIFE NYC: You Ain't Read Nothin' Yet--Stephen Hanks' Fantasy Interview With the Legendary AL JOLSON

Fantasy Interview by Stephen Hanks

With the International Al Jolson Society's 17th Annual Long Island Festival just three weeks away (On August 17, from 9am to 4:30pm, at Oceanside Knights of Columbus, 2985 Kenneth Place, Oceanside, NY 11572.), I've started thinking about Jolson and about one of the more interesting dinner party conversations you can engage in when asking your guests this intriguing question: Which historical figure would you like to talk with and what would you ask them?

If the category was limited to the greats of Broadway Musical Theater, my first choice would be the legendary Jolson, known between the late 19-teens until the day he died in 1950 as "The World's Greatest Entertainer" (a title nobody, apparently, thought Jolson deserved more than Jolson himself). "Jolie" has been one of my entertainment heroes ever since I was around 10 and saw the biographical film, The Jolson Story, in which Larry Parks played the great Jolson. Of course, I wonder if the "Mammy Singer," would even agree to talk to little old me even if I was able to channel him through Shirley MacLaine. I would bank on the fact that since Jolson died five years before I was born, it might appeal to his ego to know I was such a huge fan and I might just get the interview.

Supposing it would be possible to have a short chat with the man who starred in the first talking film, The Jazz Singer; the man responsible for Broadway shows to going on tour around the country; one of the first superstars to entertain troops overseas (during WWII and Korea). There would be so many things I want to ask him and I've occasionally fantasized about such a conversation. About 20 years ago, just after the US Postal Service honored Jolson with his likeness on a stamp, I edited an issue of the official journal of the International Al Jolson Society (yes, there is such an organization, it boasts nearly 1,000 members, and it's been around for 53 years) and conjured up this fantasy Al Jolson interview (slightly updated), limited only by page space.

For the article, I imagined myself backstage at the Winter Garden Theater, the home of Jolie's greatest Broadway triumphs and currently the home of the show "Mamma Mia." I would bend down on one knee, clasp my white-gloved hands together, and sing a few bars of George Gershwin and Irving Caesar's "Swanee." Suddenly, Jolson's aura would emerge center stage.

Hanks: Al, is that you? I've got to tell you, this is truly an honor; one of the great thrills of my life.

Jolie: You better stop gushing, kid, and get going with the questions. We don't have too much time. This apparition thing has a limited shelf life and besides, there's one of those juke box musicals in here tonight.

Hanks: Sure, of course, ah, gee, I've got so many questions I don't know where to begin. There's so much to talk about. I guess we should talk about the stamp celebration. How do feel about being immortalized on a stamp after all these years?

Jolie: Well, naturally, it's an unbelievable thrill. To have your face on a stamp, that's one of the greatest things that can happen to an American. Now there are two stamps in the family. You know, my sister's son was Rabbi Goode, one of the four Chaplains who went down with the transport ship the Dorchester in 1943. They released a stamp commemorating that event in '48 or '49.

I'm a little disappointed they didn't have a vote on my stamp like they did with Elvis Presley. You know, should the stamp be the young Jolie or the old Jolie? I knew for damn sure, it wasn't gonna be the blackfaced Jolie. Seriously, being on a stamp feels terrific. And 29 cents! Gee, when I first got to New York, I could eat for a week on 29 cents. I always felt that I could lick any entertainer on a stage. Now everybody can lick me, heh, heh. Steve, wake up, that's a joke.

I was really pleased to see Bing Crosby, Ethel Merman, Ethel Waters, and Nat King Cole on stamps, too. Bing idolized me, and that Nat, I'll tell ya, he was wonderful. Did an even better version of "Nature Boy" than mine. I just wonder what took the Post Office so long. I heard you get your face on a stamp 10 years after you die. I had to wait 44. That's longer than it took Phil Rizzuto to get into the Hall of Fame. (Please click on Page 2 below to continue.)

Hanks: Did you see your widow Erle at the ceremony? [Note: Erle was Jolson's fourth wife and was played by Barbara Hale in Jolson Sings Again, the 1949 sequel to The Jolson Story.]

Jolie: Of course, and it was real sweet of her to come to New York and represent me. Didn't she look terrific? I tried to whisper in her ear after the ceremony, but there were so many of you Jolson Society people around her, I couldn't get a word in edgewise.

Hanks: As long as you brought up the Society, what do you think about it?

Jolie: What's not to like? You know how many performers in the afterlife wish they had a fan club down here keeping their name alive? You people are great. I've been to every single Jolson Festival, including that 100th birthday party you people threw for me in New York in 1986. I brought Eddie Cantor and George Jessel along just to rub it in. But I really kvelled in 2006 when the Society got 51st and Broadway near the Winter Garden named "Al Jolson Way." (Photo above.) Lemme tell ya, when that happened I performed a show up here that lasted a week without a break. Hey, I feel like singing. So, what do you want to hear? "Swanee?" "Sonny Boy?" All the songs from Yentl?

Hanks: You know Barbra Streisand's stuff?

Jolie: Are you kidding? I've heard all the music that's come out since I passed on. We get cable up there and I see all of Barbra's concerts on TV. I'm a little disappointed she doesn't do any Jolson tunes. Judy Garland used to sing my songs all the time.

Hanks: Do you like Barbra?

Jolie: How can you not like a nice Jewish girl from Brooklyn who has a voice like that? Besides, she did a great job as Fanny Brice, one of my old Broadway friends. But, man, they use to say that I had a big ego.

Hanks: Since you referred to Funny Girl, I've got to ask what you've thought about the Broadway scene in the years since you left us? I've heard recordings of you singing "Some Enchanted Evening," and "Bali Hai," from South Pacific. (See video.) You were terrific on those songs.

Jolie: Thanks, pal. Well, I never got a chance to record "If I Loved You" from Carousel, which would have been a good song for me. I would love to have played the Devil in Damn Yankees, even though there aren't many songs for that character. And I could've killed as Fagin in Oliver. (Sings) "You've got to pick a pocket or two, boyssssss. You've got to pick a pocket or two." But I'm really sorry Fiddler On The Roof wasn't written when I was alive. Man, that Tevya part was made for someone like me, who grew up in Russia during the period that story takes place, although wearing a beard wasn't exactly my style. I would've blown the house down on "If I Were A Rich Man." (Starts singing) "Lord who made the lion and the lamb . . . You decree I should be what I am. Would it spoil some vast . . . eternal . . . plan. If . . . I were a wealthy mannnnn!" I would've had a lot of fun with Tevya's conversations with God, especially given what I know now, heh, heh, heh.

Hanks: There's some heavy irony there, though. You would have played a character who was much like your own father; someone battling his son's lack of respect for Jewish tradition.

Jolie: I respected Jewish tradition. I just didn't want to be a Cantor the way my father wanted me to be.

Hanks: You know, Al, with shows like Fiddler and Oliver, you can't stop the show halfway and break into a song like "Mammy" the way you did in the old days.

Jolie: I wouldn't have had to. Those scripts are sensational!

Hanks: So was the script for Porgy and Bess. Still upset you never got the chance to play Porgy?

Jolie: Sure. But for some reason, George Gershwin never thought I was right for Porgy. I asked him about it recently and he blamed it on DuBose Heyward, who wrote the novel. In 1932, I found out that Heyward and Gershwin might collaborate on a musical version of Porgy, so I wrote to Heyward's agent Audrey Wood and told her I wanted to play Porgy in blackface. George told me that Heyward said, "I can't see brother Jolson as Porgy." But I know George thought I wasn't a serious enough actor or singer to play a character like Porgy. For a while, I was interested in buying the rights to the book so I could stage my own musical version. I was going to have Jerry Kern and Oscar Hammerstein II work on it with me. If George and Heyward wanted to do their opera later, I had no problem with that. But everybody got involved with other projects and it never panned out. [Note: The info above is from Herbert Goldman's book, "Jolson: The Legend Comes to Life."]

Hanks: Jolie, you mentioned that you wanted to play Porgy in blackface. I know it's a sensitive subject, but I have to ask you about it. Your legacy has long been tainted by the fact that you performed as a minstrel in the early part of the 20th Century and then even sang in blackface on Broadway and the movies. I know you're not a racist because it's been documented how much you loved and helped Black musicians and actors, but do you feel the criticism is justified?

Jolie: Hey, if I knew then what I know now, of course I wouldn't have performed in blackface. When I sang in blackface, I didn't think I was demeaning black people. I didn't really think about any of that at all. I was just singing with a mask on. You know, I always respected Steve Allen, a genius whose radio show I did in 1949. After Steve died, I ran into him and I asked him what he thought about this blackface stuff. You know what he told me? He said, "Al, that criticism of you is absurd. If you were still alive after the 1950s and '60s and beyond and still performing in blackface, I would be the leader of your critics. But in the 1920s, most white performers didn't know that was offensive to African-Americans." In those days, blackface was considered an affectionate imitation of Black people. Steve's opinion was that you can't criticize one period of history using the standards of another period, and naturally, I agree. [Note: Steve Allen quotes from Stephen Hanks interview with Steve Allen for The Jolson Journal, 1998.]

Hanks: Wow, that was heavy. Let's go to a lighter topic: Any other Broadway shows that have caught your eye over the past 60 years?

Jolie: Well, for one thing, I could have lived without that Cats thing that played here at the Winter Garden for what seemed like forever. Can you believe it, a whole Broadway musical about cats? If I performed in a show like that 70 years ago, I definitely would have stopped it to sing "You Made Me Love You" and about a dozen other songs. And none of them would have been about animals except for a "Red, Red Robin!"

Hanks: But Al, what about "Memory?" That's a great song for you.

Jolie: Yeah, you're right. That is a good ballad for me. Let's see . . . I really liked The Music Man. That Harold Hill character, what a role! And though I wouldn't have been right for My Fair Lady or West Side Story, I love some of the ballads in those musicals and wish I could have recorded them. The show I really love is Phantom of the Opera. Couldn't you see me playing The Phantom? Some people thought I was a Phantom when I was married to Ruby Keeler, heh, heh. Terrific songs for me in that show, too. (Breaks into "Music of the Night") " . . . You alone can make my song take flight. Help me make the music of the . . . niiiighttttt."

Hanks: Jolie, I've got to talk to you about some music that was born about five years after you died and that's still alive today--rock and roll. Considering the fact that you were always such a musical pioneer, I'd think you would really be intrigued by it.

Jolie: There have been so many different styles of music since I died, it's been hard keeping up. I didn't like driving guitar-oriented band rock much, or those folk singers with those heavy messages. Listening to that Bob Dylan sing is like hearing chalk scratching a blackboard. Simon and Garfunkel's tunes were nice, though.

I liked Elvis Presley a lot. When he first got hot, I thought he was copying my style. Of course, I didn't move my hips around as much as he did. His ballads were terrific and I even liked his faster stuff, although "Teddy Bear" is more my speed than "Jailhouse Rock." Shame the way Elvis abused himself, wasn't it? After he died and we met, I really got on him about it. Told him he should have just stuck with the women and stayed away from those drugs. I didn't have to take drugs when I was Elvis's age--performing was like a drug for me. I could never have done a drug like cocaine. I was too hyper already.

Hanks: What about the Beatles?

Jolie: I wasn't a big Beatles fan, but some of their ballads like "Something" and "Yesterday" would have been good tunes for me. (Sings) "Yes-ter-day, love was such an eeee-sie game to play . . . Now I need a place to hide a-wayyyyy . . . Oh, and I thought the Motown sound was dynamite and I would have had a blast singing with Smokey Robinson and the Miracles or The Four Tops. And I really like the piano-playing singer-songwriters like Peter Allen, Billy Joel, Elton John, Randy Newman, and Stevie Wonder. (Sings) "Here I am baby, ooh, signed, sealed and delivered . . . I'm yours." Great tune. That Neil Diamond's another nice Jewish kid I love, especially since he had the guts to remake The Jazz Singer. He wrote some nice original songs for that film.

Hanks: What did you think of Frank Sinatra? As you know, he became a matinee idol before you made your comeback with The Jolson Story in 1947, and after you died he became an American icon.

Jolie: Look, Frank was one of the best, but let's face it, he was no Jolson.

Hanks: Al, nobody's like you and nobody ever will be. That's for sure.

Jolie: That's real sweet of ya, kid. Thanks.

Hanks: Just a couple more questions, Al. You know, it just occurred to me that you've probably run into Larry Parks in that great movie studio in the sky. Your relationship with Larry [as Jolson in photo right] wasn't always so warm during the making of the Jolson bio-pics. You guys getting along now?

Jolie: Absolutely! I've made my peace with Larry. If it wasn't for the great job he did on those movies you probably wouldn't be talking to me right now. There might not even be a Jolson Society. You know, I saw what that ridiculous McCarthy committee did to Larry, wrecking his career with all that talk about him being a communist. It was criminal what they did to the poor guy.

Hanks: Don't take this the wrong way, Al, but from everything I've read, you were often pretty obnoxious when you weren't performing, especially when it came to rival entertainers. But during this entire interview you've been funny, charming, and charitable.

Jolie: Well, kid, after all this time in paradise you mellow out a little bit. When I was down here, I was too macho and egotistical to think about seeing an analyst, even though I probably needed one more than anybody I knew. Upstairs, we've got the best shrink of them all. And I'm not talking about Freud.

Hanks: Just one more thing, Al. Any message for all your loyal fans in the Jolson Society?

Jolie: Just that I love 'em all for keeping my music and me alive. Maybe I can express myself better with a song. I hadn't sung this tune in years and years until Irving Berlin (left in photo) joined me upstairs and accompanied me on the piano. And boy, did I wait a long time for Irving. I thought that guy was never gonna kick. This is for all my Society friends: "I'll be loving you, always . . . With a love that's true, always . . . Not for just an hour . . . Not for just a day. Not for just a year . . . but always." See ya, kid!