Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
#1Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 8:26am
Lebowitz: "The thing I hate most in the world are musicals. Among the many awful inventions of human it is in the top 2."
"[Hamilton] is the only good one in my lifetime".
https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/VIDEO-Fran-Lebowitz-To-Frank-Rich-HAMILTON-Is-The-Only-Good-Musical-In-My-Lifetime-20160506
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#2Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 8:35am
Yes she sounded incredibly uninformed and ignorant. The only thing I agreed with her on is that it's nice to see the commercially successful show be one that is actually good.
LarryD2
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/1/14
#3Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 8:37am
Fran Lebowitz ceased being relevant decades ago. She was, at one time, an important thinker, but she is now little more than a parody of a public intellectual. Does anyone even pay attention to her anymore, or care what she thinks?
Updated On: 5/8/16 at 08:37 AM
John Adams
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
#4Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 8:38am
I think part of her "schtick" is being a curmudgeon.
#5Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 8:41am
Musicals are truly one of the great cultural contributions the USA has made domestically and internationally, and (as a generalisation) NO ONE does it better than Americans. She should show some respect, and pride.
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
#6Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 10:02am
She represents the majority opinion in this country. Perhaps the greatest contribution of Hamilton is that it has shifted that opinion ever so slightly. It doesn't mean that anyone here who likes 'em should like 'em any less but if you don't realize this you are living in a bubble.
#7Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 10:47am
I like Fran Leibowitz. Relevant or not, she's only spouting her opinions, and I find them funny.
<-----I'M TOTES ROLLING MY EYES
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#8Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:05am
I just think saying 'I hate musicals' is almost as stupid as saying 'I hate films' or 'I hate music'. There's such a wide variety and as Fran herself has proven by loving Hamilton, she doesn't hate them all. Also, this opinion is so often spouted by people who rarely see musicals and only know of the most mainstream ones, which a lot of times, aren't the ones that are actually great.
#9Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:18am
Well, only speaking for myself of course, I'm not a big lover of musicals either. I don't care for show tunes, so there's a huge reason. When I do love one, I'll see it as many times as possible. Also, I'll see one only for a particular actor who's in it, not for the show.
<-----I'M TOTES ROLLING MY EYES
#10Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:24am
I actually think that's how the majority of non theater goers feel. I've heard numerous people say musicals are lame and the breaking into song is cheesy. There are even theater lovers who only see plays for the same reason. She's speaking for more people than you think.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#11Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:24am
I don't know though, show tunes have so much variety these days. They can be any genre of music, be diegetic or non-diegetic etc. All that makes a song a show tune is if its in a show.
I dislike most musicals because a ton of musicals get made and most of them either aren't good enough or aren't to my personal taste. Same with TV shows, films, music etc. But to say you don't like any (and then go on to say except this one oh and this one) just makes it all seem a bit silly.
#12Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:31am
It just all boils down to opinion.
Whether we agree with an opinion or not, no one's opinion can be called "wrong." It's a matter of opinion, lol!
And as to the title of this thread - she knows exactly what she's talking about. It's how she feels.
<-----I'M TOTES ROLLING MY EYES
Updated On: 5/8/16 at 11:31 AM
#13Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:31am
She's entitled to hate musicals, it's not an unreasonable claim. I hate poetry, but it doesn't mean I won't ever find a poem I like.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#14Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:36am
Okay we're going to have to agree to disagree. I do think it's wrong to dismiss an entire art form on the basis that you don't see hardly any of it anyway. If you don't want to see it then you don't have to but to claim it's one of the worst inventions humans have made (I'm aware that that was probably hyperbole) when you don't actually see much of it is bizarre to me.
I don't see a lot of sports because I'm not interested in it, but I don't ever say sports are awful, sports are a terrible invention, I hate sports etc. because I haven't ever properly tried to like them so my opinion would be based out of ignorance.
#15Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:51am
Those of you who are attacking the messenger might want to consider that even were Fran a blithering idiot (she's not, by any means), the sentiment is prevalent and anyone who doesn't accept that is living in a pathological state of denial.
And to those who don't think you can dislike a genre or even an art form and still like some things that fall within it are just nuts. I don't like country music or horror movies but there are examples of both that I like very much. Many people here went to see Hamilton with skepticism because they hate rap but came out saying that they liked it in Hamilton.
A bit of intellectual honesty would go a long way around here.
followspot
Broadway Star Joined: 12/27/11
#16Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:55am
Nothing unusual for Lebowitz. She's a humorist whose trademark is curmudgeonly hyperbole. Get over it.
"Tracy... Hold Mama's waffles."
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#17Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 11:55am
HogansHero said: "Those of you who are attacking the messenger might want to consider that even were Fran a blithering idiot (she's not, by any means), the sentiment is prevalent and anyone who doesn't accept that is living in a pathological state of denial.
And to those who don't think you can dislike a genre or even an art form and still like some things that fall within it are just nuts. I don't like country music or horror movies but there are examples of both that I like very much. Many people here went to see Hamilton with skepticism because they hate rap but came out saying that they liked it in Hamilton.
A bit of intellectual honesty would go a long way around here."
Has anyone in this thread tried to deny that it's a common opinion?
As for your second paragraph...if you like something(s) within the genre then you don't completely dislike the genre. That's just logic. Your Hamilton example is exactly what I mean. A lot of people say they hate rap, see Hamilton, then say I hate rap except for Hamilton. Chances are if they actually researched rap music, they'd find some stuff they would like. I've seen both Lin and Daveed call people out for this ignorance in the past and they're right to do so IMO. No-one is saying they have to go and find more rap music to like, but don't go shouting about how all rap music is awful except the songs from Hamilton.
sabrelady
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/16/03
#18Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:17pm
She doesn't "know" anything, she is giving her opinion and it is valid for her. Whether she is relevant as an arbitrator of cultural expression is another question entirely. She has taken a set of essays and parlayed them into a couple of books and stopped. Since then she has made a a career of being a guest, whether with rich people, who she admires A LOT. or the talk show circuit or even the occasional speaking engagement. ( yes i consider her "role" as Judge Janice as a guest visiting w rich person Dick Wolfe). ( supposedly she "suffers' from the worlds longest case of writer's block)The other people who's similar opinion you say she represents - 98% of them would not even know her name
Frankly, she always seemed like an Edith Sitwell wanna be but w less ability.
But that's just MY opinion.
mamaleh
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/11/04
#19Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:18pm
Most people in the country may dislike musicals today, but that was not always the case. Cast recordings and musical soundtracks used to figure among the most popular music. Everything is cyclical, so who knows? Especially with shifts in what constitutes a Broadway score, Post-HAMILTON, it will be interesting to see whether the form will begin to morph into something resembling a hybrid of the old and the new.
#20Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:21pm
@aaaaaa
re#1-implicitly yes. Otherwise how do you make sense of the opprobrium of Lebo?
re#2-you are trying to parse common conversation far too acutely. It's just like what my father said when I was a kid who wanted to do something and didn't get permission: "Everybody's doing it." "No, you are a part of everybody and you're not." It was silly then and it is silly now. Modest hyperbole is a quintessential part of diction and your " logic" is actually quite illogical.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#21Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:27pm
HogansHero said: "@aaaaaa
re#1-implicitly yes. Otherwise how do you make sense of the opprobrium of Lebo?
re#2-you are trying to parse common conversation far too acutely. It's just like what my father said when I was a kid who wanted to do something and didn't get permission: "Everybody's doing it." "No, you are a part of everybody and you're not." It was silly then and it is silly now. Modest hyperbole is a quintessential part of diction and your " logic" is actually quite illogical. "
1 - Just because something is a popular thought doesn't mean that some people don't see it as wrong.
2 - I don't think 'one of the two worst inventions in human history' is MODEST hyperbole.
BrodyFosse123
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/27/06
#22Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:44pm
I've been an avid Broadway attendee since 1972 when at the age of 7 I saw my first musical on Broadway: the original cast of PIPPIN. My love for Bob Fosse and his work began at this time.
Since then, I became obsessed with Broadway and spent all my summers in NYC from 1972 to the late 1980s. Then as an adult, I visited NYC every few months to see shows exclusively. Yes, I saw EVERYTHING. Countless original Broadway casts and many times flew up from Miami last-minute to catch a show that was quickly closing just to add it to my growing list of "I saw that."
Today I live and work in NYC. Sadly, I can no longer sit thru a Broadway musical. My interest in Broadway waned about 15 years ago. Due to my career, I frequently am offered comped tickets, which I politely decline. The last show I recall actually enjoying when they went into a song was the 2010 Broadway revival of PROMISES, PROMISES and IN THE HEIGHTS. For obvious reasons I accepted the tickets to HAMILTON. Out of respect to the arts, I sat thru the entire thing though I was tempted to leave midway thru Act 2.
I still follow Broadway thru these boards and the news so I'm fully aware of what's happening but I no longer venture to see a show. As every resident New Yorker, I avoid the Times Square area. Boy did I spend my childhood wandering around the theater district almost daily and sneaking into the open stage doors in the afternoons. I can't recall the last time I walked thru Shubert Alley.
It happens and I fully validate everyone's opinion on Musical Theater. It sho' ain't fo' everyone.
#23Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:44pm
aaaaaa15 said:
" 1 - Just because something is a popular thought doesn't mean that some people don't see it as wrong. "
That's a non-sequitur: You said " Has anyone in this thread tried to deny that it's a common opinion?" to which I responded yes, at least implicitly.
" 2 - I don't think 'one of the two worst inventions in human history' is MODEST hyperbole. "
Again, a non-sequitur. The hyperbole I was discussing was not Lebo's characterization of the genre, but the common understanding of " everything." You said " if you like something(s) within the genre then you don't completely dislike the genre." And I am saying that the use of "everything" in that context is modest (and completely understood in our language) hyperbole.
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#24Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 12:49pm
HogansHero said: "That's a non-sequitur: You said " Has anyone in this thread tried to deny that it's a common opinion?" to which I responded yes, at least implicitly."
Well I disagree, I don't think anyone has. I definitely disagree with what Fran is saying but I'm also well aware that it's a common train of thought.
" Again, a non-sequitur. The hyperbole I was discussing was not Lebo's characterization of the genre, but the common understanding of " everything." You said " if you like something(s) within the genre then you don't completely dislike the genre." And I am saying that the use of "everything" in that context is modest (and completely understood in our language) hyperbole."
Right. And if Fran had said 'You have to drag me to the theatre because I don't like musicals but I liked Hamilton' I may have rolled my eyes a bit but I wouldn't think she was being as ridiculous as she is being here. Charlie Rose pretty much said exactly said in his first feature on Hamilton and it didn't bother me anywhere near as much.
In a dream world, people wouldn't make ignorant statements and would actually put some nuance into what they're saying. I'm aware that that will never happen. Fran however takes it to a whole other level and that is what bothered me and many others in the thread.
#25Fran Lebowitz proving she doesn't know what she is talking about
Posted: 5/8/16 at 3:08pm
aaaa said"Okay we're going to have to agree to disagree. I do think it's wrong to dismiss an entire art form on the basis that you don't see hardly any of it anyway."
And why do you think she hardly sees it? Because she doesn't like it. oy
Apropos to blanket statements on disliking a genre of art: I've been around and current for decades. From the start of rap until now. So that means I've heard TONS of it. All kinds of it. So, I more than dislike it. You say I haven't heard the rap that's different, that I would like? Well, I'm here to tell you that I don't have the slightest desire to delve through the annals of rap to find one that I like.
<-----I'M TOTES ROLLING MY EYES
