Shopping or Selling on StubHub and Craigslist: Helpful? Ethical?- Page 2

[ZannaDo]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 2:49pm

FishermanBob,
So those without money should only be allowed to see the shows that aren't popular? Sorry, people who love theatre who can't afford four-digit ticket prices on Stubhub, guess you better resign yourself to getting TDF seats for Mamma Mia! That sounds pretty classist to me. I don't think the debate is about people who can't afford to pay 1000$ for a seat to a show only being willing to sit "eighth row center". Most people I know who can't afford to pay that kind of money for a show aren't picky about their seats.

Also, no one is saying that the reality is that the production is sold out and the prices set by the production are set for a reason and it would be very entitled to ask them to lower prices or sell seats that could fetch 120$ for 20$, they need to make money. Broadway is a business. I'm sure many people are waiting for Broadway to see the show and will pay what they can for seats or hope for lottery/rush.

But secondhand tickets don't put money back into the production. There is no benefit to the theatrical community in that money. Premium seating is a better analogy for your "Ralph Lauren sweater" comparison. Scalping is just a way for greedy people to profit off of the art of others and the desire of fans to experience that art.

[figaroindy]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 3:15pm

I don't think Fisherman Bob said any such thing - and you might want to not jump on that moral high horse.

The theater had the right to set its prices, and one presumes that if all tickets are sold at their agreed-upon prices, they'll make the money they wanted. And, if a fan is willing to spend lots of money for a show they really want to see, it's not classist for them to pay more or for someone to meet their need at a mutually agreed-upon price.

It's common in lots of other markets - houses, for example, does a bidding war mean the house is worth more than the original price? No, it means someone wants it a lot. Is a Maserati really worth 10x the price of a Chevy? No, someone wants THAT car, and is willing to pay the inflated price for it. No one suggests these are horrible things...why is buying a ticket any different?

If you bought some furniture, and then years later, it was antique and worth more, would you only be willing to sell it for what you paid? Or is that an example of reasonable increase in worth? Well, same is true for tickets, they were worth what was paid for them, demand increased or supply decreased (both, in most cases), and now the value is different. That's how the market works.

Aren't the people willing to pay that much ALSO greedy - in terms of wanting to see the show THAT much? Why aren't you chastising them? Money isn't always bad, "nice is different than good."


Updated On: 3/3/15 at 03:15 PM

[FishermanBob]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 3:30pm

Thank you figaroindy. You said it better than I could have. ZannaDo did a nice job distorting my comments. I never said people shouldn't be allowed. People can see whatever they want if they have the money. Probably 75% of the +/- 30 shows running on Broadway are quite affordable. If someone isn't satisfied with a choice of 20-25 great shows because they had their heart set on seeing Fish In The Dark but can't afford it, well, that's tough. It just speaks to the entitled, disconnected from reality view of some on here who want to see EVERY show, some multiple times and believe it is their right to be able to do so even if they can't afford it. No one has a right to see Hamilton. You go if you can afford it and if you can't, you see something else. I love how ZannaDo goes to great lengths to remind us that Broadway is a business and the producers need to make money but apparently no one else is allowed to. Who agreed to that?

I'm not a classist, I just understand that in the real world, some have more money than others and some can afford things others can't. If they came by their money honestly because they were more successful than others in what they chose to do, I don't have a problem with them being able to go to Morton's for their steaks while others with less money have to "settle" for Outback. We don't live in a socialist society and I wouldn't want to. As long as people have the basics, a roof over their head, clothes to wear and food to eat, everything else is a luxury.

There is no requirement that the resale of a theater ticket above face value benefit the theater community and it's ridiculous to arbitrarily impose one or impose guilt on people who don't share that view. That there is this level of interest in Hamilton can only benefit the interest in live theater as a whole.


Updated On: 3/3/15 at 03:30 PM

[RUkiddingme]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 4:11pm

FishermanBob - are you saying if you go to Morton's for a steak and they serve you Outback take out instead of their regular quality you would be ok with that?

Are you saying if you agree to sell your house for 1 million with an exclusive realtor and the realtor sells the home for 2 million and keeps the extra 1 million profit for themselves you would be ok with that?

We can all come up with lots of examples to debate but that's not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread if you read Round2's post is Round2 wants permission to do something they don't believe is right. No one here can act as Round2's conscious.

[ZannaDo]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 4:25pm

I'm not sure we're even talking about the same thing? Nobody is begrudging those with money having access to things that others don't. That's the reality of the world we live in. Tickets are expensive. If a production sells out of tickets charging 120$ a ticket, those who can't afford it are out of luck. It's unfortunate for those who can't afford it, but it's the cost of doing business.

What I object to is the access scalpers have to scoop up tons of these tickets somehow, removing access for people who would pay what the theatre is charging for the tickets and then inflating the price beyond what most reasonable people could ever afford to pay. Personally, I went to a concert recently where I purchased the ticket in advance, gave my name, and when I got to the venue, they scanned the credit card I used for the original purchase and gave me my ticket on my way in. There were almost no seats scalped for the concert, and the system was run very efficiently and the show (in a venue with a capacity of 2500) started on time. I wouldn't be opposed, and would actively encourage, a system like this for Broadway, though I'm sure it isn't very likely. I can't imagine why a production would oppose it though, as the money scalpers get over face value doesn't go into their pockets. As a matter of fact, I'm sure they would rather people be encouraged to buy tickets from the production itself rather than encouraging a secondhand market that doesn't benefit them.

And we're not talking about getting a Maserati vs. a Toyota, we're talking about people wanting access to the exact same product, not a better model. The analogy in the post prior about a realtor selling a $1mil house to you for $2mil and keeping the profit is a better one. No one is asking for premium orchestra seats at a rock bottom price. No one is asking for a cheap ticket to be of the same quality as an expensive one. I'm arguing that everyone should have equal access to purchase tickets, instead of making it so easy for scalpers to make a huge profit off something that they had no hand in creating. People are more than allowed to make money, and there are many unscrupulous or icky ways to do so that are legal. But this thread is about the ethics of scalping and whether or not it is good for Broadway and for audiences and I don't think it is. Sorry.

Updated On: 3/3/15 at 04:25 PM

[FishermanBob]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 4:30pm

RUkiddingme, on what planet would a reasonable person with a basic level of reading comprehension conclude that is what I was saying or implying. I won't get into specifics about how that was not what I was saying because your absurd mischaracterizations aren't worth the effort.

The point of this thread is Round2 asking what people think about doing this. You don't think it is right for a certain set of reasons and justifications. I don't have the slightest problem with it and was poking holes in the validity of your justifications. That's kind of how a discussion board works. Rather than further defend your justifications, you are just choosing to completely distort what I was saying using the well worn "baffle them with bulls**t" approach. I agree with your very last sentence, but that's about it.

@ZannaDo... this thread was not about the ethics of scalping, of professional scalpers who have no intention of seeing the show unfairly finding a way to buy up large quantities of tickets that somehow, no one else has access to. You and others have made a question about the ethics of reselling a pair of tickets at a profit into that. If scalpers have that ability to access tickets before anyone else can in large quantities, I don't disagree that that's a flaw in the show's selling mechanisms and should be corrected. But a single person reselling a couple of tickets they bought originally to see the show at a profit because it's too much money to pass up does not make them into a scalper no matter how much some would like to unfairly portray them as such. In fairness, would we even be having this discussion if the show got lousy reviews, was a flop and scalpers were left with loads of tickets they were lucky to get back 25% of what they paid for them. Would you bemoaning how unfair it was for them to not even be able to recover their initial investment? The easiest way to put scalpers out of business is to refuse to pay their prices. If you are simply unable to do that, you have no one to blame but yourself. Updated On: 3/3/15 at 04:30 PM

[Taryn]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 4:40pm

It's funny that people bring up how scalping offers none of that extra value back to the production. Premium seating was developed to combat that -- because if there was extra money to be made, shouldn't the show itself make it? -- and people talk about hating that, too.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/3/15 at 5:25pm

I said this before, but it seems to bear repeating. The Public could, if it were so inclined, invalidate the broker tickets. The ticket is sold with various conditions including, explicitly, NOT FOR RESALE. They could enforce that provision such that, if you cannot use your tickets, your only recourse would be to have the box office resell them.

I don't really have a problem with individuals reselling legitimately purchased tickets (as people often sell such tickets here). But if you look at Stubhub, you'll see patterns that make it obvious that many of the Hamilton tickets are in the hands of brokers. Those tickets could be cancelled.

Now this does not address my personal concerns about tickets I own, but that doesn't even seem to be the subject of this thread any more...

[figaroindy]

Posted: 3/4/15 at 12:42pm

And we are back at the beginning - why do the scalping companies have that "early access?" Oh yeah, because the poor, penniless, theater LETS them have it. And as HogansHero points out, the theater could easily invalidate the tickets after resale, but DOESN'T.

Anyone pretending to be magnanimous and worried about the theater/production not getting benefit is just trying to find a more palatable way to state that they can't compete with deeper pockets.

I like how we ignore the antique furniture example - because it's EXACTLY the same thing....but let's focus on the one that you find easiest to argue with. Whatever!

Soon, we will get the argument "I'm a poor student, and I LOVE this show, and will DIE if I can't see it 10 times, but I can't afford it because it's worth more than I can afford....it's not fair!" So, I'll hit that one now...when I was a poor student, and couldn't afford to do something...I didn't do it....'nuff said. There is no entitlement to being able to see a Broadway show, or going to Disneyworld, or anything else that is considered a luxury. It's all about what you're willing to give up (pay) to do such a thing....you're not willing to give up $500, but someone else is....then, they win. Updated On: 3/4/15 at 12:42 PM

[ZannaDo]

Posted: 3/4/15 at 5:49pm

So, good job constructing an argument literally no one was making about seeing shows multiple times for $10 and then tearing it down! Nice straw man. I have no problem with theaters raising premium prices to reflect the market value of the tickets, whatever that may be. If it's 500$, so be it. I'm talking about having tickets sold directly to patrons by theaters and not having others profit off the mark-up, as I've said, but thanks for claiming to know what I meant!

This happens in the concert world more flagrantly, mostly because a lot of the time resellers have an in with ticket sellers and venues so you'll often see prime seats for sale on broker sites before the tickets even go onsale. That doesn't seem to happen as much in theatre, thank god, but unless you're somebody who wants to make an extra buck on a product you didn't create, I can't see how you can argue that if tickets will fetch 1000$ a pair, it's better for that money to go to some shady broker instead of the production.. Especially theatre companies like The Public that rely so heavily on donations. Roundabout does something similar with their donor seats, I believe decent tables for Cabaret ran about $2500? I find that infinitely more palatable. As I said, nothing will likely change but this thread is for discussion and opinions and that's mine.

Updated On: 3/4/15 at 05:49 PM

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 3/4/15 at 11:15pm

Zannadu, I'm with you when you say, "I'm talking about having tickets sold directly to patrons by theaters and not having others profit off the mark-up..."

Unlike Ticketmaster or similar companies, which handle a great deal of the administrative hassles on behalf of the theaters, scalpers don't do anything useful. Instead, they merely speculate on tickets, buying them up and then selling them at inflated prices. I suppose a pure capitalist might say that the theaters get their money sooner and the speculators take a risk because the show might be a flop. However, much of the problem applies to touring shows, where they know ahead of time which shows were hits on Broadway and are therefore likely to sell out on tour.

I tend to view ticket scalping as an unfair trade practice, and I'd like to see the feds ban it, along with payday loans, Bain capital type operations, interest of 18-21 percent on credit cards, obtaining a patent on a useful item and refusing to produce the product or license it, and other business practices that exist solely to make money, rather than to make money while doing something useful for society.

End of rant.

[AHLiebross]

Posted: 3/4/15 at 11:15pm

Zannadu, I'm with you when you say, "I'm talking about having tickets sold directly to patrons by theaters and not having others profit off the mark-up..."

Unlike Ticketmaster or similar companies, which handle a great deal of the administrative hassles on behalf of the theaters, scalpers don't do anything useful. Instead, they merely speculate on tickets, buying them up and then selling them at inflated prices. I suppose a pure capitalist might say that the theaters get their money sooner and the speculators take a risk because the show might be a flop. However, much of the problem applies to touring shows, where they know ahead of time which shows were hits on Broadway and are therefore likely to sell out on tour.

I tend to view ticket scalping as an unfair trade practice, and I'd like to see the feds ban it, along with payday loans, Bain capital type operations, interest of 18-21 percent on credit cards, obtaining a patent on a useful item and refusing to produce the product or license it, and other business practices that exist solely to make money, rather than to make money while doing something useful for society.

End of rant.

[round2]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 10:15am

"If you're so desperate for cash you can sell the ticket at face value. Or maybe get a job."

RUkiddingme, I was so busy working I missed your defaming me here a coupla days back.

It's interesting to me to have a discussion here that spotlights the economic issues related to theatergoing. I must be among Lin-Manuel Miranda's biggest fans, and I want BADLY to see HAMILTON. I also do work in NYC that I'm passionate about and that I think is important for me to do (for a variety of reasons). It doesn't (yet, anyway) pay me near what would prevent me in NYC from struggling financially. I did make the decision to invest full price to be able to see HAMILTON, but now, in light of my finances impacting my spouse, I don't think I can ignore the reality that I now own something that's not essential to our lives that would bring in significant bucks to relieve our economic strain. I don't think my making money on my investment in this pair of tickets would be money made doing good for society, but it helps me be able to do my other (underpaid) work that I'm clear does good for society.

Complicated issues.

[RUkiddingme]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 11:38am

Nothing complicated.

When I bought my ticket to Hamilton I was engaged in a hobby I like - seeing live theater.

You are now calling your decision to buy a ticket to Hamilton an investment.

Sell your tickets and years from now the lucky buyer can boast to there friends they saw the Pulitzer winning production at a little off broadway theater.

And years from now you can tell your friends how you were a scalper and paid your Con Ed bill.

[round2]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 12:59pm

"Nothing complicated."

Seems a bit easy for you to dismiss other people's economic struggles as uncomplicated.

"When I bought my ticket to Hamilton I was engaged in a hobby I like - seeing live theater.

You are now calling your decision to buy a ticket to Hamilton an investment."

Spending $125 on anything feels like an investment to me. Especially a luxury item.

"Sell your tickets and years from now the lucky buyer can boast to there friends they saw the Pulitzer winning production at a little off broadway theater.

And years from now you can tell your friends how you were a scalper and paid your Con Ed bill."

Boasting about my consumption is not that big a priority for me. Which doesn't mean that I hate missing out.

Thanks for this shaming exercise. Though if I focused my work on buying up theater tickets for the purpose of re-selling them at a profit, I probably would feel shame.

[NJ_BroadwayGirl]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 1:13pm

As long as people continue to buy tickets on the resell market, scalpers will continue to scoop up the tickets to sell. It's just like if regular ticket buyers are willing to pay for a premium priced seat, the producers will keep offering them.

A theater production isn't technically being hurt since it got the money for the tickets when the resellers/scalpers bought them, but it sure hurts the overall feeling about live entertainment. I look at concert tickets and know I will never truly have a fair shot at getting the seats I might want directly from the source and it irritates me to no end.

[RUkiddingme]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 1:55pm

Round2 - I'm not trying to shame you - I'm saying bad things about a-hole greedy scalpers.

You are not an a-hole greedy scalper!

Do a search on your posts and email - you like theater!. You like to go to theater. You've sold tickets in the past at cost - that's who you are!

Sorry if you're having a rough couple months - there are other ways make money or save money or get by.

In the meantime, go see this show you really want to see. It's so good it will inspire you.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 3:17pm

round2, don't allow anyone on this board shame or judge you. If you want to sell your tickets so you can have cash to do things with, go for it. No one is forcing anyone to buy the tickets on Stubhub, people will gladly pay a ton of money for good seats. Go for it, you are doing nothing wrong.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 4:10pm

There was a time when scalping was illegal in New York; and that law was repealed. There was a time when alcohol was illegal; and that law was repealed. That does not mean that binge drinking is prudent, or that selling someone enough alcohol to die from it isn't activity at least some would think about twice. Similarly, buying tickets at ridiculous prices from scalpers isn't imprudent, and some can still think twice about whether they want to participate in that marketplace. A chacun son goût.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 3/5/15 at 6:32pm

"So those without money should only be allowed to see the shows that aren't popular? Sorry, people who love theatre who can't afford four-digit ticket prices on Stubhub, guess you better resign yourself to getting TDF seats for Mamma Mia! That sounds pretty classist to me."

Everyone has the same opportunity to buy tickets when they go on sale, at multiple price points. There hasn't been a single NY production that sold out its entire run in 5 minutes and shut everyone out.

If you're on a limited budget and you love theatre and desperately wanted to see a show, you should have jumped on tickets as soon as they became available. You can't whine about classism if you waited until it was too late.

[ZannaDo]

Posted: 3/6/15 at 1:00am

I have no problem with that, orangeskittles. If I miss out on a show because I wasn't paying attention, that's on me. That doesn't make scalping any less gross.