The Leftovers - Season 2- Page 2

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/25/15 at 10:06am

My assessment was probably excessively harsh, as the episode will likely have stand-alone elements. And it's just my subjective taste, a little of that sort of limbo/dreamscape stuff -- once so beloved of Rod Serling -- goes a long way for me.  I think it will be valuable to look at this piece of the puzzle after the season ends.  Too much of this second edition has been really nuanced, compelling writing (and playing) to necessarily see this as a wrong turn.  But I'm concerned that the whole re-use of Patti may suggest layers below where the show has been working.  It's always been rock solid when dealing with a kind of gritty, reality-based view of the aftermath of an apocalypse.  It's the grounding in daily domestic crises that has made the woo-woo elements so embraceable. When we get into karmic debt, multiple dream state assassinations, heavy (handed) biblical allusions, I'm just much less interested.  The domestic drama's intersection with cosmic crises made it fresh.  Once the cosmic stuff supercedes, we're in anything-goes (i.e. "Lost" ville.  

Updated On: 11/25/15 at 10:06 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 11/25/15 at 4:50pm

Different strokes and all that: I thought Sunday's episode was not only the best of the series, but one of the best hours of TV so far this season! I was thoroughly engaged, intellectually and emotionally.

 

And, as a rule, I HATE shows set in a fantasy/after-life/dream world where the writers seem to be making up the rules of the world as they go along. In this case--and though the "rules" of the world did seem made to be broken--there was no much emotional investment in each new twist that I simply didn't care that it was somehow taboo to drink water but okay to drink whiskey in the Purgatory Hotel.

 

That said and as much as I love Ann Dowd, she should be done with this show now.

 

Updated On: 11/25/15 at 04:50 PM

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/26/15 at 2:46pm

Gaveston, you've inspired me to watch the damned thing again.  I'll try to wrap my brain around it.  

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/26/15 at 3:15pm

Eric - Thanks for the info.  I hadn't read the novel, so I wasn't sure how the series was going to unfold by comparison.  I do enjoy watching it, but I remain wary of where it will go or how it will finish.  What I love most of about season 2 is Regina King.  She's come a LONG way since 227 and delivering a fierce and memorable performance.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/26/15 at 4:40pm

The novel is a fairly quick read, and worth picking up, although like I said, I found it pretty different in tone (and of course in many small details compared with season one.)  Perhaps tellingly, Lindelof has said he was unaware of it until he read a rave from Stephen King who compared it to the Twilight Zone (Perrotta fans were pretty divided by the fact that he had written a "genre novel" in the first place, though I would rank it just below Little Children and maybe Election out of his works I've read--certainly above The Abstinance Teacher.)  

I have mostly succeeded in allowing myself not to really worry about where the show is heading (at least I like to think I have ) especially since from the start, like with the novel, they said there would be no answer to the main Rapture conceit--that said things like the last episode which does seem to want to explain some of the world do worry me.  Gaveston--did you watch Lost?  Like I said, I gave up on it eventually, and it was different since the writers always claimed all would be answered and revealed and they knew where they were going (only afterwards did they admit that wasn't true--no kidding?!)  I only ask because I wonder if the reason some of us reacted more negatively to the episode is because of our Lost fears...

Matt, I am so with you on Regina King!  Amazing, especially in episode 6 I believe it was.  I had NO idea she was on 227, though I only watched that as a kid and mostly remember Jacquee.  Otherwise I've only really been aware of her before in a peripheral way.  (I wonder if she was brought to Leftover's attention by his Lost co-writer, Carlton Cuse--she was in some of season one of the show he's showrunner on, The Strain.  A truly awful show, IMHO :P )

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/26/15 at 9:48pm

I don't think I even managed to get all the way through the pilot of The Strain (though keep your eye out for The Expanse on Syfy...sort of Blade Runner meets Total Recall).  As soon as I saw Regina King, I turned to my boyfriend and shouted, "Oh my God!  It's BRENDA!"  I freaking LOVED 227.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 9:55am

Regina King is a gift to the show; I wish she had more focus.  Too much Patti, too little everyone else.

[JPeterman]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 3:41pm

Just a quick comment to say I watch this show religiously, no pun intended. I was so happy to see this thread because I have had nobody to discuss the show with.

 

I loved season one, and I equally love season two. I loved the purgatory hotel episode, International Assassin. There are so many ideas and issues floating around in the show right now, it seems almost impossible to tie it up, even without "answers", in the few episodes that remain without doing a third season.

 

I have a suspicion I know what happened to Evie and her friends, but I won't say on her, in case I am right and I spoil it, or in case I am wrong and I look like an idiot. I look forward to hearing everyone's reactions to the conclusion of season two. Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread.

Updated On: 11/27/15 at 03:41 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 5:56pm

Glad to see another fan!  It is criminally ignored, and the fact that it has less than half the ratings of last season, this year, have me worried (AVClub has said that the brilliant acting, particularly from the women, should lead to award nominations--but I am not so sure.  The Emmys, certainly, are happy to ignore low rated shows, especially when they dip into elements that some might call "genre"--the dreaded G word).  Speaking of, if you are looking for discussion of the show, AVClub is pretty decent although this last episode led to so many "THIS HAS BECOME LOST!" rants that I didn't even get through one page of the comments.

I rewatched most of the episode last night (a friend had it on when I arrived.)  And I liked it better the second time around.  I do think, within the context of the episode, a lot of things were great--the fact that Kevin specifically tried to not choose the Priest, Remnants or his own cop uniform, but a plain suit and then became an Assassin, the Greek myth stuff about drinking the water (though I don't buy that Virgil would have drank the water,) etc.  I realize my main frustration is that the show has really become an ensemble show--it's no longer focused just on Kevin and his demons, if it arguably ever was--and having an episode in a relatively short season be all based on him and on Patti (I am with Auggie on her,) felt, at best, like marking time.  I am gonna trust that, even though there was the reference to the Priest's wife being in the hotel too, this is not some sort of alternate reality, but a genuine drug trip...  I suspect we just won't get a firm explanation, except that this will be shown as a reason for Kevin to drastically change, as several characters within the episode mentioned.

Today I read the AVClub review, and I think there is one valid point about the "Magical Negro" element.  Yes, they called it out this year, so are aware of it.  But really--did Virgil have to *kill* himself to atone for something he had done to his son years ago and, had said, he had gone through the same atonement process as Kevin was going through for?  More to the point--he doesn't know Kevin from Adam, wouldn't it be more meaningful if he sacrificed himself out of a need to atone in a way that would directly help his family or people he knew?  The need to atone yourself blindly for everyone's sins, no matter what connection or knowledge of them you have is too close to me to Tolstoy's own crazy (IMHO) latter day philosophy, and disappointing to me if there isn't some explanation as to why he had to do it for Kevin, besides the fact that Theroux is hot and, I guess, the protagonist of the show.

Add to that, my worry that it won't be renewed for a third year, makes me a bit bitter when we get an episode that, essentially, feels like it is padding or could be dealt with in 1/4 of the time it took.  That said, I do think the episode on its own is stronger than I thought when I first watched it, and certainly better than a lot of what I remember of Lost (which I don't think ever devoted an entire episode to such dream logic.)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 6:51pm

Auggie, beware! I know I disagree with Eric only at my own peril!

 

No, Eric, I never watched LOST, even though it was my daughter's favorite show. The talk and print around it always sounded like the shows i mentioned in my previous post. It's all Dungeons & Dragons to me and I just don't care. Of course, the general dismay with the final season did nothing to cause me regrets.

 

I started to watch "International Assassin" again and was just as engrossed the second time. (My husband decided he was too tired to watch it carefully, so we tabled it until a future date.) I really don't know why, other than, obviously, Theroux and Dowd make a heavy-hitting acting duo IMO. (ETA maybe it helped me that the episode was chronologically continuous, except for the drive back to Jardin. Maybe I can take more mystery when the narrative isn't jumping from subplot to subplot.)

 

I readily admit I don't know why Virgil chose to go with Theroux, or why Virgil drank the water.

 

*****

 

Does the original novel put everything in a religious context, like the LEFT BEHIND series? Because although the characters see the connection (as they would), the TV show seems to distance itself from the actual book of REVELATIONS.

Updated On: 11/27/15 at 06:51 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 8:56pm

GavestonPS said: "

Does the original novel put everything in a religious context, like the LEFT BEHIND series? Because although the characters see the connection (as they would), the TV show seems to distance itself from the actual book of REVELATIONS.

 

"
No, very pointedly they do not--I think the religious elements have been, from Season one on, Lindelof's writing and the fact that this year they have a religious consultant: (I haven't actually read this link, but he's written a few pieces for the Vulture) http://www.vulture.com/2015/10/leftovers-questions-reza-aslan.html

 

[darquegk]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 9:21pm

This past episode, to me, appears distinctly influenced by Haruki Murakami, and I noted fairly explicit references to "Dance Dance Dance," "After Dark" and "The Wind Up Bird Chronicles" in particular.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 9:45pm

Not a shock there, as Lindelof has always gone on about what a Murakami fan he is.

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 10:16pm

Yes, Murakami homage is in the air.

[darquegk]

Posted: 11/27/15 at 10:34pm

The dried up well, a hotel that serves as a purgatorial dream world between life and death, a faulty television signal resolving into communication between planes of existence, classical music as recurring motif and the need to assassinate a powerful political figure in the other realm to affect change in the real world...

All that was missing is the Sheep Man. This episode was Haruki Murakami's greatest hits.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/28/15 at 12:56am

Although half of those elements are Lynch things as well (and, I am sure, things that go back way before my limited knowledge of lit and film). 

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/30/15 at 12:11am

I haven't watched episode 9 (tonight's) yet, but did come across a somewhat interesting interview about episode 8 from Tom Perrotta http://www.indiewire.com/article/the-leftovers-tom-perrotta-on-taking-kevin-to-the-other-side-and-if-there-will-be-a-season-3-20151128?utm_medium=sailthru_newsletter&utm_source=iwDaily_newsletter

[Auggie27]

Posted: 11/30/15 at 8:20am

ONLY MILD SPOILERS.  Well, last night was much more in support of the show's traditional narrative, if it has one.  And featured some stunning work by Tyler, an under-appreciated actor. She was remarkably good last night, and deserves to carry a film (another topic).  The episode did feel somewhat like a Thursday episode in soaps, i.e. womped up in part to create the looming Friday.  My problem might be more connected to the diffused storytelling that is often characteristic of prime time serials: the multi-focused canvas can lose its momentum, as movement among the players tends to leave threads dropped for 2-4 weeks.  Last night's was a good example, much of the ominous, portentious chat about what's ahead seemed dropped into an arc that has all but ignored it.  We gather this sub-denomination of the GR is up to more ghastly activism than last season's finale, but the intention seems to be to offer the equivalent in Miracle/Jardin.  It hasn't been terribly well constructed, the GR vaguely dropped in (though in one of the best episodes, with Brennan).  We've lost the two families along the way, Carrie Coon having almost nothing to do this season, alas, after Nora was presented as the show's root-for (in my estimation).

 

I was fairly riveted to last night's show, and know the last episode -- perhaps literally -- promises powerful drama.  I just wish the good things in this ambitious second season felt more organically connected.  To be fair, to get to my earlier point, both "Mad Men" and "Sopranos" freely employed this sort of tangential storytelling, whole events woven into chapters that didn't provide set-up.  I get the approach. I understand we gain unpredictability and variety for what we sacrifice in cogency.  But unlike domestic/crime/workplace dramas grounded in quotidian details, with sci-fi or fantasy, the wandering focus can leave the audience impatient and stranded. We're already working with a premise that the creators admit isn't constructed around a big reveal.  When the beats are collage-like, even when excellent as stand-alones, we lose that investment in incremental movement.  I still applaud this second season; I'm not sure its execution has been as successful as its intentions. 

Updated On: 11/30/15 at 08:20 AM

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 11/30/15 at 9:12am

I haven't seen last night's episode yet, but WOW, what a turn around. I am totally loving this season.

 

Regina King is a gem. I hope she is well utilized. I have only loved her more as Stella's ambulance-driving sister in How Stella Got her Groove Back.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/30/15 at 2:21pm

I felt like Tyler could snag a (well-deserved) Emmy for last night's episode alone.  It reminded me how much I always enjoy her performances, even when I may hate the film she's in, such as Armagedditoverwith or Bored of the Rings.

[Luscious]

Posted: 11/30/15 at 11:40pm

Really interesting read. Part 1 of 3.
 

‘The Leftovers’ Boss Damon Lindelof Explains That Shocking Twist

 

Updated On: 11/30/15 at 11:40 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 12/1/15 at 5:31am

That's a terrific interview and addresses some of the storytelling elements Auggie so well addressed above. I'll write more tomorrow lol but I also agree on Liv s performance.

and I feel smug for thinking of Hanging Rock in comparison to this show a few weeks back lol

[Auggie27]

Posted: 12/1/15 at 8:16am

He makes a very persuasive case for the twist.  I just feel they might've gone overboard worrying about the surprise element.  In truth, part of the fun of any serial is anticipation.  I felt the missing girls were dropped too often and in a cavalier manner. Not paying sufficient attention to our emotional investment; after all, we didn't know this family until this season. The girls were day player characters, not series regulars. We knew zip about them. Who cares if they exit?  But that's my taste, I like clues, I like incremental movement.  I like to get inside the emotional aftermath.  Regina King and company haven't had enough to do to keep the missing kids front and center, in my opinion. I found it interesting how much he addressed the criticism in the interview.  For me, the GR was the backbone of the show. It didn't really exist without it last season. So fretting over how little or much seems very much about pleasing an audience, contradicting his other comments on not wanting to adhere to strongly to the rules.  His comments on the stand-alone episode I loathed didn't help me like anymore.  But I'm the first to own subjective nature of any responses to any story.  At least the twist puts what he calls the spine of the season back in the spotlight.  I wish it hadn't been so neglected.  For a show about grief, there was very little grieving over the missing teens.  That didn't help the investment.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 12/1/15 at 12:59pm

I agree with lots of that though I felt they did show well how some characters were scared of grieving simply because they didn't want to have to go through the departure experience again

i love how The Leftovers does change focus episode to episode. But it is very hard to pull that off as well as a"spine story" at the same time in just ten episodes. While kinda obvious in ways I do find it still thrilling how the main players have all ended up in Miracle. (And I agree that nothing Damon says has made me like ep right more though it did not polarize me quite as much as it did some)

Updated On: 12/1/15 at 12:59 PM

[Petralicious]

Posted: 12/2/15 at 9:30am

I enjoy this season better than last season. I was so happy to be done with those mutes. This episode with them back was horrible, I almost turned it off. Good thing I did not. The last 10 minutes were awesome.