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Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#181
Posted: 12/29/13 at 6:43pm
Feel free to substitute "accept", "appreciate" or even "understand" then.
Nobody has argued that "I'm Still Here" is sacrosanct and only open to one interpretation. For some of us, however, it remains an open question what Cocker accomplished or even intended to accomplish.
indytallguy
Broadway Star
Joined: 7/13/08
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#180
Posted: 12/28/13 at 7:54pm
But I wasn't speaking of Stritch's singing as if it needed to be forgiven.
Updated On: 12/28/13 at 07:54 PM
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#179
Posted: 12/28/13 at 6:45pm
The difference is that Stritch lived through many of the events itemized in the song, so I forgive her singing.
Even if he is 50, the same cannot be said of Cocker.
(I also assume Stritch is doing the best she can; I'm not sure of Cocker.)
indytallguy
Broadway Star
Joined: 7/13/08
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#178
Posted: 12/28/13 at 2:56pm
Rewatching this right now, I'm finding Cocker singing I'm Still here no better or worse than Stritchie singing it at Sondheim's bday celebration. The visuals of the women are even more compelling than I remember, particularly during the final few bars of the song. And people did get introduced to the "proper" way to sing by the song with the initial excerpt from Yvonne DeCarlo.
Struck again by how fast this documentary moves. Really keeps you engaged. Love it. The story about the editor of the doc gives insights into how it was all pulled together.
Cutting Six By Sondheim
Updated On: 12/28/13 at 02:56 PM
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#177
Posted: 12/20/13 at 3:00pm
And you put the good in good-bye!
I'M KIDDING! :)
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#176
Posted: 12/20/13 at 2:39pmRobbieJ is the one who put the sin in sincere.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#175
Posted: 12/20/13 at 2:29pm
RobbieJ, your discussion of the segment and your reaction to it are so much more interesting to me than Cocker's rendition. I can only say "thank you" for the entire discussion.
(And, again, I am sorry you thought I was accusing you of insincerity. Not a chance.)
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#174
Posted: 12/20/13 at 11:53amWell, here's hoping that Jarvis Cocker will read this thread and learn from those of us who think he was sucky and emerge a better artist like you did Robbie.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#173
Posted: 12/20/13 at 10:57am
'Now as for your deconstruction, I'm not entirely sure I understand how you came to your conclusions.'
Frankly, it took a while. :)
The big thing I was left with at the end was 'WHY?' So, I sat with it for a few days and rewatched it and tried to figure out what Haynes was going for. I came to the conclusion that, because the emotional arc of the piece was the reactions of the women, then that was the event, rather than the song and performance itself. And after I came to that, I realized what was really being done was a mirror was being held in my own face. I, too, have gotten up in clubs in NYC and performed women's songs...even the song in question. And the ironic, mocking tone of Cocker's performance really stung when I had to stop and ask myself, 'Do I do that? Do I mock women instead of celebrate them? Is it inherently mocking when a man decides to do a diva song like that?' I like to think not, but perhaps I'm wrong. And when a woman watches me do I'm Still Here or Lot's Wife or Ladies Who Lunch or Fifty Percent, do they think I'm taking aim at the experience of women in our society? Or do they think I'm simply someone trying to exercise his range by investing myself in another experience.
A number of years ago, I played a role that was coded 'gay.' He wasn't clearly gay, but it was hinted at in the (older) script and so I went for it. The character was meant to be a little unhinged, so I thought I could get away with being a little outrageous and a little unstable. Then, a review was printed which compared my performance of a queer character to 'watching a black man tap dance and eat watermelon.' Oooof. I didn't necessarily agree, but I had to deal with the fact that a performance of mine made someone feel that way. I had to examine my work and see if I was taking the easy way out, and if I should demand more of myself. The very next role I played was a transgender hooker dying of AIDS, which could have been absolutely absurd. But I used what I learned to ask more of myself, and everything changed: my process, my respect for the words on the page and the way in which I treated myself as an actor. I learned a lot from that one very terrible review. But seeing that I'm Still Here segment brought up those memories and forced me to deal with them in a way that I haven't in over a decade.
Again...this is so bizarrely personal that I understand why no one would take away from it what I did. But that's what leads me to think it was successful on some level.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#172
Posted: 12/19/13 at 9:39pm
SO glad you all mentioned it- I can catch it on Friday on HBO East!! 
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#171
Posted: 12/19/13 at 9:22pmEric, maybe I'll check out IMPROMPTU. It's true that I didn't know Cocker and wasn't in the mood to be charitable. In fact, I only heard him the second time I saw the doc because my husband was watching it with me. When I watched it alone, I fast-forwarded through the song.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#170
Posted: 12/19/13 at 9:17pm
Why would anything I've written be considered anything but sincere? It's a strange turn of phrase that makes me think I'm being patted on the head and sent to my room with a glass of lukewarm water.
I apologize, Robbie; that phrase wasn't directed at you. There are various posters who liked that segment and I can't always tell who is being sincere and who is being contrary for its own sake.
But I would never accuse you, of all people, of insincerity. On the contrary, you have been remarkably candid about your reaction to the video and what it meant to you and your work.
And I still maintain that the same effect could have been achieved by something like Australian singer David Campbell's version of "Broadway Baby" without assaulting my ears with a cheese grater.
But mysterious growl is right: you did provide a detailed account of why you liked the video, and I sort of missed it. I was responding to a different post where you acknowledged problems with the treatment and suggested "Ladies Who Lunch". I didn't mean to ignore anything you wrote (and, upon reflection, I agree that "Ladies" would have been too on the nose).
Now as for your deconstruction, I'm not entirely sure I understand how you came to your conclusions. (Being the honest man you are, you've said that some of your response is related to your thinking about your own performances--one of which I dearly hope to see someday. But I know you have fine critical skills, so I don't for a moment assume your reaction is merely subjective.)
But if one is looking for a version of "I'm Still Here" where the singer merely trusts the material and uses it to tell a story: one need look no further than the original, Yvonne de Carlo version. AND she sings on pitch.
P.S. to mysterious growl: not to worry, there are no hard feelings on my part. You were right that I failed to consider the full extent of RobbieJ's remarks.
Updated On: 12/19/13 at 09:17 PM
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#169
Posted: 12/19/13 at 8:54pm
Gaveston said: "I still have no idea why the Cocker choice was made. (Joey sums up my response exactly.) But if others sincerely believe they were moved/provoked/challenged in a Brechtian way, etc., then more power to them.
On the other hand, I do understand and even agree with RobbieJ's interpretation of the other numbers. Not that I'll be hiring Lapine to direct any movies... "
I didn't love the performance, but I found it interesting (just to add my by-this-point not needed 2cents.) I'm a minor Pulp/Cocker fan (I was obsessed with the This is Hardcore song and video when it was out and frankly have lost track of him ever since.) But it may have helped that I knew Cocker's style, and didn't expect something all that different.
However, Todd Haynes probably deserves some of the credit/blame for Cocker's performance, and not just for the way it was shot (I wouldn't be surprised if the choice of performer in the first place wasn't his idea.) I'm, mostly, a huge Haynes fan, but his performer choices for I'm Not There, his film inspired by Bob Dylan left me mystified (granted, I am not much of a Dylan fan.) This didn't seem all that different.
As for Lapine directing a film. I dunno, I never saw, nor do I plan on seeing his Hollywood comedy, Life with Mikey, but I thought his breezy Chopin biopic, Impromptu, is a lot of fun, and quite romantic.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#168
Posted: 12/19/13 at 6:14pm
Ha! I’ll share a parallel experience with SUNDAY. I ordered the VHS when I was maybe 13 or 14, having already fallen head over heels for INTO THE WOODS and thinking, “This guy has written other shows?! And they’ve been filmed?!” (I was a latecomer to MT.) So I ordered it out of a magazine and paid God knows what – something close to $60? – and waited patiently for it to arrive in the mail.
I’ll never forget excitedly pushing it into the VCR and being greeted with that opening… what? scene? dialogue? and then that thing that Bernadette Peters sings which doesn’t even really sound or feel like a song? And everything is so stilted and moves so slowly and then… another… what? song? that also doesn’t seem like a song? More slow talking?
I was so perplexed and sad. Over the next couple of years, I’d pop it in late at night when I needed to fall asleep. It really bored me that much. I watched the first 10 minutes 15 or 20 times.
Then when I was – I don’t even know – 17? I finally told myself that it was ridiculous to write it off not even knowing what it’s about. So I forced myself to sit down and watch it.
The following year at college, I bored countless friends with it, insisting that they must, must, must experience this wonderful show. And now it’s my favorite. I don’t think it’s Sondheim’s best, but it’s my favorite and has been since the first time I watched it all the way through.
But to this day, I’m never more aware of how I felt about it that very first time than when I’m showing it to someone who hasn’t seen it. My mom and I saw it in Stratford in 2009 (part of my initiative to get her through the Sondheim canon), and I was reminded, sitting next to her in the theater and feeling her boredom, and acutely aware of what a strange, strange musical it is – defiantly un-melodic at times, slowly paced, a feeling of meandering plotlessness in act one, and sporadic comedy that does not land easily at all.
And last night I showed it to a friend who hasn’t seen it; we didn’t talk about it afterward, so as to let him digest, but I’m very interested to get his thoughts hopefully soon.
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#167
Posted: 12/19/13 at 5:51pm
I can't get through that show without sobbing. It's the best work yet about the creation of art, in my opinion.
And I think, when all is said and done, it's my favorite Sondheim show. If you asked me a decade ago, I would have said Sweeney Todd.
And speaking of "new," when I first heard Sunday (the show) when the recording was released, I didn't care for the music. I liked the song Sunday, I liked the story, and I loved the lyrics ... but the music was such a departure for Sondheim, and to my unfamiliar ears, it was mostly atonal and discordant.
I have grown to love the music ... every blessed note.
And who's to say? I may look at this video from Six By Sondheim a decade from now and praise its brilliance. I don't ever lock myself into one all-time opinion of anything. I change as a person, through the years, and so do my perceptions of art.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#166
Posted: 12/19/13 at 5:41pm
I just watched that last night
I've always thought "Sunday" was one of Sondheim's most beautiful songs, but watching the show after hearing him speak about it in the documentary was the first time it stirred me to tears.
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
Updated On: 12/19/13 at 05:41 PM
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#165
Posted: 12/19/13 at 5:35pm
I think the thing I'm coming to is that simply being present and open and willing to allow my life and my experiences also be present in my work is what makes it 'different,' if you will.
To quote the master himself:
"Stop worrying if your vision is new. Let other's make that decision they usually do."
And ...
"Anything you do, let it come from you, then it will be new."
Two of my favorite lines in that show, and words to live by as an artist. You will bring something new to the plate just because you're you. As long as you trust yourself. That trust is so difficult to come by. I think when artists don't trust themselves and their individuality, they look for ways to embellish or ways to imitate or ways to overwhelm. Eventually it turns into smoke and mirrors or facades. Truth is lost.
I think you should honor your material and honor it your way. Easier said than done! And so easy to sum up, yet so difficult to accomplish.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#164
Posted: 12/19/13 at 5:19pm
oh, bestie, I hope that you know me well enough to know I'd never be condescending to you, and I apologize if any part of my tone was read that way. But going back and reading my initial response to yours, I still think my fundamental questions about your post were valid ones.
(I'm not trying to goad you into responding, either; I'm getting to the point where I sort of want this conversation to go away because there seem to be misinterpretations happening on both sides among people I respect... so I'm trying to only respond when I feel like something concrete can be addressed. And with that being said, I honor everyone's opinions, and I think we should all strive to do that, whether we agree or not. There's no reason for any of us to go After Eight-style rigid about this.)
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
Updated On: 12/19/13 at 05:19 PM
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#163
Posted: 12/19/13 at 5:19pm
^ I loved that reprise of Honey Bun. I know others who felt it was too heavy-handed, but I simply disagreed.
I think the thing I'm coming to is that simply being present and open and willing to allow my life and my experiences also be present in my work is what makes it 'different,' if you will. The older I get, the more I think, 'Just do it and let you be you.' It's a hurdle that is still surprisingly hard to clear. I find these kinds of choices are more readily found in my cabaret work. When I'm doing a full theater piece, I generally just burrow into the script and work from there. But, in the cabaret world, in which there are hundreds of interpretations of the same songs, I find myself pushing to do something new. It can be such a trap.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#162
Posted: 12/19/13 at 5:13pm
Robbie---If the work got you thinking (even if you weren't entirely sold on it), then it succeeded on some level for you, absolutely.
I battle with myself over whether I should try to simply honor the work as written or try to put a new spin on it.
I think the ultimate goal should be to do both, which is hugely challenging. Honoring the material while putting a new (or at least fresh) spin on it.
I agree that as an artist, merely Xeroxing a previous interpretation isn't nearly as challenging even if it's more accessible for audiences. They already know what they're getting, at least to some degree.
And "new" always involves "risk." But I don't think you throw out the baby with the bathwater (Why are Grandma's cliches popping up so often for me lately?).
Finding a new way to honor the material is the ultimate goal, otherwise you (as an artist) are merely eclipsing the material or overwhelming it.
For me, as an audience member, my reactions to efforts like that are usually that "the artist thinks he's better than the material" or "the artist doesn't trust the material" or "the artist doesn't like the material." In any of those instances, it's a negative reaction from me.
Here's a random example of trying something new that (to this day) haunts me. It was so successful and added something I never thought I would see ... Do you remember the revival of "South Pacific" where they did the reprise of Honey Bun with the soldiers all marching like ghosts? It was brilliant. They didn't change a word or a note. It was just staged and arranged in a way that added so much depth to that moment of the show.
That's my random example of trying something new while honoring the material.
And I'm not trying to be condescending either here ... just illustrating an example of how I think what you're describing can work, and work brilliantly.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#161
Posted: 12/19/13 at 4:59pm
Well...let me take this time to tell you that I in no way intended my remarks to annoy or bother anyone. Truly. Even my remark about 'new interpretations' wasn't meant as any kind of general thing like, 'You GUYS! Why aren't you open to new interpretations???'
It's actually a very personal thing I'm dealing with as I reassess my own work. Whenever I encounter work that exists (as opposed to original works that have yet to be produced), I battle with myself over whether I should try to simply honor the work as written or try to put a new spin on it. I'm starting to realize that some of my work suffers from trying to add something that doesn't really belong. So, I felt that this particular segment spoke to me personally on quite a few levels. It just hit me at the right time for me to want to sit with it and think about it.
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#160
Posted: 12/19/13 at 4:46pm
My take on that? Gav was on the defensive because he felt attacked by either you or growl or both. But let him speak for himself. (I'm sure he will.)
I felt a bit "condescended to" by both of you, truthfully. That doesn't mean I thought your remarks and reasoning weren't sincere. Just mildly annoying, as well.
Going back to something you said about trying something new, I understand that. And I'm all for trying new interpretations, but that doesn't mean "new" equals "good." It's the attempt I admire, but the result remains to be seen. In this case, it failed for me. "New" equaled "bad."
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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Updated On: 12/19/13 at 04:46 PM
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Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#159
Posted: 12/19/13 at 4:41pm
Oh, grrrrrl! This segment has gotten people heated!
For the record, I fully understand the range of reactions...I'm just trying to explain mine. The only thing posted here that's disgruntled me in this thread was this sentence by Gav:
'But if others sincerely believe they were moved/provoked/challenged in a Brechtian way, etc., then more power to them.'
Why would anything I've written be considered anything but sincere? It's a strange turn of phrase that makes me think I'm being patted on the head and sent to my room with a glass of lukewarm water.
Updated On: 12/19/13 at 04:41 PM
Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#158
Posted: 12/19/13 at 4:36pm
My earlier comments were about Cocker's performance, not Haynes interpretation of it as a director. I realize by showing emotional reactions from audience members to a guy on stage who is essentially mocking the song and trivializing it is likely a commentary on how audiences project their feelings onto a performance, whether it's deserving or not ... but his performance of the song, by itself, sucked.
It's an opinion, just like yours. I don't need to be insulted because I thought he sucked.
I'm not sure how I feel about setting a sucky performance in a room full of weepy, aged women, because I couldn't get passed thinking he sucked.
Now don't get all defensive about it. Suckage is in the eye of the beholder. You loved it. I didn't remotely love it.
There it is.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
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Anyone catch Six by Sondheim on HBO?#157
Posted: 12/19/13 at 4:28pm
I no longer understand what this conversation is about.
Are you looking for a defense of the vocal performance by Cocker? I won't offer one...but not because it was terrible. It simply wasn't the event of the piece. The reactions to the performance were the event. This wasn't even a music video. It was a short film ruminating on themes of I'm Still Here. I've already explained my interpretation of what Haynes' was going for and why I found it effective.
Also, the more I thought about why it wasn't Ladies Who Lunch, the clearer the answer became: it was too obvious. That song is already a commentary on a certain class of women. It would have felt to confrontational to use that song. I'm Still Here is less 'in you face' for what I believe Haynes was going for, which actually allowed all of the women to have a range of emotions while digesting what Cocker was doing.
