Oh no! High school production of DREAMGIRLS- Page 3

[trpguyy]

Posted: 11/17/05 at 11:56pm

Knowing nothing about the show, and not caring about color, those pictures look pretty damn good. The design team has it all together, and it's rare to see a wonderfully designed show without a talented cast.

[Unmasked05]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 12:06am

I was about to say the same thing.......but I know about the show.

Those kids look like they had a good time doing it and plus they seem like they probably did good. I'm black and don't mind the color blind casting, it looks really cool.

I think its a shame for people to laugh at these kids pictures...remember that back in your HS days you might have done productions that might not have been Top Notch...cause I did.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 4:03am

I don't think the pictures are funny but here, color is an issue. I hardly EVER say that. I'm all for color-blind casting. But if a show is about race, it makes it hard to do it without color in mind. It's like having a black Father in Ragtime. IT doesn't work. Now Once on This Island has an alternate version to make it about rich and poor (which weakens the story a hint). But Dreamgirls is about a black group trying to cross over from the R&B charts. They have to get a smoother, less soulful sound to expand their audience base. They're also supposed to be the first black group to book Miami. It doesn't make sense if some of these people are white. I think the ONLY charcter (out of the leads) who could be white is Michelle, the replacement. Even THAT's a HUGE stretch.

Another issue I have is that High School productions should be an extention of the classroom. It should be art education. Fun is great, but they should also learn something about how to play a character etc. You can do that with plenty of shows that they have the casts for. I would be interested in hearing this though. Not only do they need an intense girl to play Effie, but they need a high belter for Lorell. THen there's the chorus of belters. True, color isn't everything, but here I think it would have served the cast better if they did another show.

[Sumofallthings]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 7:17am

Admittedly though it is difficult to judge the vocal talent of a group from still photos.

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 9:53am

Hey, I was in a kick-ass production of Oklahoma! in high school... but our ages were all wrong, naturally! That's the fun of high school productions. I played Andrew Carnes (Ado Annie's FATHER). I gave it my best "geezer" voice, for a 17-year-old with faux-gray temples. I got big laughs and good write-up in the school paper.

So, while I laugh long and loud at these "Dreamgirls" pictures, it's not like I haven't been there myself.

That's part of the charm. See it for what it is.

Deena's white and Effie's wearing glasses.

Five bucks says that the gal playing Deena doesn't DARE put it on her resume.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 10:07am

I do think this is funny, but I also think it is kinda fabulous and high school is a time to experiment (okay, I didnt mean to go there, but...)

B12B, I'd put it on my resume!
I've thought about an all male Dreamgirls...it'd be alot of fun. I say, if ya wanna be Deena, be Deena!

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 10:08am

Hey Sum,

Bizarre questions...but a friend of mine was going to Ohio this weekend to see his sister play Belle in a production of BATB at her high school. You don't happen to be in Ohio, do you? Feel free to PM.

[Jon]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 10:26am

About 15 years ago, the Marriott Lincolnshire Theatre (a bigf Wquity theatre near Chicago)did a "salt-and-pepper" production of THE WIZ. The lion was black, the scarecrow was white, the tinman was black, etc. Dorothy was played by Susan Moniz, who is Hispanic. A group of black actors picketed the theatre for not using an all black cast. Basicaly, they were just angry because they auditioned and didn't get cast.

[Flahooley]

Posted: 11/18/05 at 12:49pm

To me the saddest issue this production suggests is that a school that has a largely African-American student body probably doesn't even HAVE a theatre department..at least not in Los Angeles.

Check out OT: OurTown documentary to see what I mean. You will be moved.

Also, race is SO much an issue in the central conflicts of DREAMGIRLS that to present it with European-American cast members is just another example of European American flaunting their privelage and choosing to ignore how that privilage is dependent on keeping African Americans and other people of color under privileged.

Not funny.



Updated On: 11/18/05 at 12:49 PM

[beyondthebreakofday]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 12:59pm

Has everyone forgotten the recent controversy surrounding the High School production of "Big River"? It seems that everyone was bashing the copyright holder for objecting to the showing of a white Jim and a black Huck. Big River is another in which the skin color of performers is very important. Either one agrees with color-blind casting or not. One can't bash the copyright holder for refusing to allow the high school to show a black Huck and a white Jim but then object to a high school putting on a "Dreamgirls" production with a largely white cast.


Controversial High School production of Big River

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 1:26pm

beyondthebreakofday --- I agree. When race is that important to the heart of the story, it can't be overlooked or ignored for any reason you can give me. If I held the copyright to Big River, I would have objected and held the rights back as well.

I'm all for non-traditional casting as a general theory, but not when it kills the basic story you're trying to tell. If the plot is about how race issues affect our lives, then you can't put your own modern political agenda ahead of it and tell me that it doesn't really matter in the end.

If that's your point, then do another play to prove it. If you want to do "Big River," with a story that says race DOES matter, or at least DID matter to the characters in it, you need to do the material justice and not fly in the face of it.

[beyondthebreakofday]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 1:55pm

Exactly.

[ellenoshalom]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 2:58pm

Wow deep, yet I appreciate that.

[broadwaybaby654]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 5:31pm

my high school, lachsa(los angeles county high school for the arts)did dreamgirls color blind..it was really good...im not just saying that because I was lorrell...but it truly was...I am white, our effie and our c.c. were white...and all of the voices were amazing

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 7:21pm

Yes but that's not the point of the show. To have great voices. How did you deal with the color issue? Because there is a color issue that's at the center of this show.

[broadwaybaby654]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 8:09pm

we made it more about r&b vs. being mainstream. It doesn't need to be about black and other....

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 8:16pm

Jazzysuite82---nicey put.

This is actually my whole problem with "color blind." I don't even "get" the term! It's a big joke. We shouldn't be blind to anyone's color. Instead, we should do our best to understand and appreciate people for who they are... and that INCLUDES the color of their skin. We shouldn't be "blind" to it anymore than we should ignore where they came from, or their gender or personal history or religion. I'm getting on a soap box now, but I'll try to be brief and get off it quickly...

All of these elements (including race) add up to who we are as individuals. I'm GLAD we're not all the same and we don't see everything the same way. What a boring world it would be if we did! We would have nothing more to learn from each other, because we would all be the same person. Racism comes from FEAR. The fear is born because an individual or group somehow perceives that they are threatened. Why do they feel threatened? Because they don't understand the "differences" in someone who isn't like them. It's fear of the unknown. Not understanding isn't a crime by itself, it's just ignorance. Ignorance can be removed by learning about the other person. You will never know what it's like to walk in someone else's skin, but you can try to understand why they feel the way they do, and what brought them to their feelings and opinions. As artists, that's part of our job. Learning can help remove the ignorance, and, in turn, the fear. Or you can try to stamp them out with words or violent actions, as some do. That's another way to get rid of the fear. Unfortunately, it's the easier route. It solves the problem quickly and efficiently. It takes much more energy and effort to learn about a "different" person's background and history than to just shove them aside, beat them down, or even kill them... or worse, sometimes... be "blind" to them, as if the difference never existed to begin with.

Okay... so how does this remotely relate to a nicely-performed high school production of "Dreamgirls?"

broadwaybaby654---I'm sure you gave a great performance as Lorell, and I'll bet you have a terrific voice. That has nothing to do with it. And your point that it was GOOD is merely one of vanity. The problem isn't you or your abilities as a performer, it's the director and the school for choosing this show and completely removing the heart and soul of it by casting you and your fellow non-African-American cast mates. They killed the story that was being told.

Color "blind" indeed.

Updated On: 11/19/05 at 08:16 PM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 9:25pm

If you don't think Dreamgirls is about color as much as it is about achieving dreams etc., then you don't really know the show. Back in the 60's and early 70's R&B meant black generally. That's what Curtis is talking about when he says moving to the Pop charts and having a wider audience. It means not just black people listening to us. That's the whole issue with Effie singing back-up. she's too black to cross-over. Let's not forget what I mentioned before about Jimmy and the Dreamettes at that point being the first black act in Miami. No matter how good the actors or the production was, the show IS about race.

[djjd007]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 10:37pm

I agree with both sides on this issue (if that's possible). As a former actor, there is no bigger challenge than literally walking in someone else's skin. This particular instance of "color blind casting" could potentially allow students to fully explore the deeper issues in these characters' lives from the invaluable first-person perspective (for instance, a "privileged" suburban white Effie could learn a lot about the world beyond her cul-de-sac). In the case of "Dreamgirls," maybe it's not a bad suggestion at all for a white person to inhabit the skin of someone else. With a thorough character analysis and study, it's quite possible someone could learn a *LOT* about themselves. Before I left for college, I knew *no one* who was black, and very few others who were a color beyond that of Wonder Bread. I owe my ability to comfortably acknowledge issues of race completely to being exposed to "Dreamgirls." Don't throw stones, but I truly do think it helped me be much more open-minded in a less-than-open-minded environment.

And then there's the bigger issues in this piece - selling out, moving on, making changes. None of those are unique to a single race. I would challenge you to find many people who cannot identify with the character of Effie... Experiencing discrimination and heartbreak and then having to rebuild from scratch. Personally, there have been more than a few times that "I Am Changing" has literally brought me to tears.

I'm not suggesting that a professional all-white production of this show be mounted, because I don't think it would work (no matter which way you slice it, the creators have clearly referenced race). HOWEVER, if performed in an academic or laboratory setting, I think students could learn a lot from Deena, Effie, Lorrell, Curtis, & Co.

And, one final note... should gay men be offended by characters on "Will & Grace" and "QAF" that are portrayed by straight men? Should we ban high schools from doing shows with characters beyond that of their own age range to avoid being gerontologically incorrect? Should I be incensed that Adam Pascal and Rosario Dawson play drug addicts in "Rent" because they have never actually been down that road?

Where do we draw the line between acting and what is required from first-hand experience?

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 11:23pm

Your argument makes a certain sense I think there are other shows that do this better firstly. Secondly it only works if it is in a classroom study of a scene. I could see that being useful to a young student. But let's not loose sight that this is theatre and theatre is not made for the actor alone, but also for the audience(this is in school settings. In professional settings theatre is entirely for the audience). The problem is how is an audience (who has no idea what Dreamgirls is) to know that the character of Effie, the Dreams or Jimmy are trying to overcome racial discrimination if the actor playing them is white. The audience feels for the struggle for Effie, I agree, but the struggle is now not clear when it's played by a white person. The actor is the only one identifying with Effie because at that point the audience is thinking "what's the big deal, Effie's white". You can't very well put a disclaimer in the program "imagine the character of Effie White as black". THAT's the big issue with race. As a teaching tool in the classroom, I say study the show as long as one realizes that issues of race are being discussed.

As far as actors portraying things they're not (gay, straight, old, young) how does one identify a character having those attiubites? By PHYSICAL behavior. A young student can put on a wig, grey one's hair, walk with a cane to suggest age. There are certain things one can do to play a gay character or a straight one. How does one play a role that's meant to be black? There's only one identifying factor...skintone. Short of black-face, it's impossible. This is why race IS different than all of that. I say go for color-blind casting when color isn't the issue with the play. Race ISN'T the same as sexuality, gender, or age. I think it's a societal (sp?) thing. I can't explain it but people will forgive fudging in many other areas except for race.

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/19/05 at 11:55pm

djjd007 --- You made some very good points there... but you're really seeing it from the performer's perspective. A white performer could learn a lot from playing Effie... BUT one of the show's major messages would be lost on the AUDIENCE as a result. Since I don't ever believe we do theatre for ourselves, and it's mainly for communicating ideas and feelings to an audience, we've robbed them of a big part of the story for our own gain. I don't see that as being fair in the end to anyone. There are other ways "we white folks" can learn about the black experience without playing Effie White on stage.

And yes, you're right... "Dreamgirls" has much more in it that racial struggles and tension, but it is the catalyst behind Effie's downgraded move to a backup singer, so Deena, who appeals to a wider (read "whiter") audience can lead the group to a higher level of success. And Curtis, a black man, is the one who downgrades her. Racism within the race, all in the name of "show biz" success.

As far as gay characters... that isn't as easy to read on a stage. When "Will" comes on screen, we have no visual "proof" to see that he is a gay man. This is not the same thing as a white woman walking into the room as Effie White. We immediately know that she is not African-American and the racial storyline and relevance goes out the window. Now, if she could convince the audience that she was black with her acting, then you'd have theatre! It's not likely, though.

Updated On: 11/20/05 at 11:55 PM